Sic Semper Tyrannus?

rustymason · Post by **rustymason** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:48 pm

The most common translation for Sic Semper Tyrannus, Thus always to tyrants seems incorrect to me. Sic and semper seem correct (thus/so and always) but to tyrants does not. Shouldn't the correct translation of sic semper tyrannus be A tyrant is always thus/so? Or shouldn't tyrannus be changed to tyrannis in order to get thus always to tyrants? Further, if we use tyrannis then couldn't the ablative also be assumed, yielding in English thus always by tyrants (ablative of means)?

Gratias,
Rusticus

Deccius · Post by **Deccius** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:18 pm

You have presented some misinformation. The phrase is not "Sic Semper Tyrannus" but rather "Sic Semper Tyrannis." Knowing this, it is certainly possible that "tyrannis" could be an ablative of means, but I doubt that is the case considering how this phrase is most often used.

rustymason · Post by **rustymason** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:52 pm

Deccius wrote:You have presented some misinformation. The phrase is not "Sic Semper Tyrannus" but rather "Sic Semper Tyrannis." Knowing this, it is certainly possible that "tyrannis" could be an ablative of means, but I doubt that is the case considering how this phrase is most often used.

I don't think it's accurate (or polite) to say that I've presented misinformation. Look it up on google, you will see many thousands of references to sic semper tyrannus. Myself, I have heard people on television shows and in the news use this phrase for years. I think the correct phrase should be sic sempter tyrannis but the popularity of sic semper tyrannus had me puzzled, that's all.

Chris Weimer · Post by **Chris Weimer** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:27 am

Google should be the last place you ought to go to in order to find your information. Try wikipedia, where it contains Booth's actual quote, "Sic semper tyrannis". Moreover, anything you hear on t.v. you're likely to confuse, since the short /u/ and the short /i/ sound very similar.

But no, if you keep it in context, Booth just assassinated Lincoln, whom he considered a tyrant, and later compared himself to Brutus, who killed Caesar, the dictator. Dative is clearly preferred here.

rustymason · Post by **rustymason** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:15 pm

Chris Weimer wrote:Google should be the last place you ought to go to in order to find your information. Try wikipedia, where it contains Booth's actual quote, "Sic semper tyrannis". Moreover, anything you hear on t.v. you're likely to confuse, since the short /u/ and the short /i/ sound very similar.

But no, if you keep it in context, Booth just assassinated Lincoln, whom he considered a tyrant, and later compared himself to Brutus, who killed Caesar, the dictator. Dative is clearly preferred here.

I've been around a lot longer than Google, Sonny. I did not receive the incorrect quote from Google, I heard it many times through the years on the news and in the papers from people who were supposed to know better. I was just wondering about it, that's all. I don't need a lecture from some ill-mannered know-it-all brat about Wikipedia, thank you. You will learn much more, Sonny, if you stop assuming that you know everything and try to see things from others' point of view.

Amadeus · Post by **Amadeus** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:20 pm

A similar thing happens with the name Amadeus. Shouldn't it be Amadeum or Amadeo?

Lucus Eques · Post by **Lucus Eques** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:26 pm

Rusty, in the poor pronunciation of Latin that most English speakers use, tyrannus and tyrannis sound exactly the same. Hence your confusion, and hence the confusion of others that don't know better.

But Chris did not speak to you rudely; indeed, you have spoken rudely to him, without provocation. Chris provided you with a perfectly clear answer divorsed of any offensive words. Pax, amici.

Lucus Eques · Post by **Lucus Eques** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:27 pm

Amadeus wrote:A similar thing happens with the name Amadeus. Shouldn't it be Amadeum or Amadeo?

I don't follow.

Agrippa · Post by **Agrippa** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:52 pm

Lucus Eques wrote:
Amadeus wrote:A similar thing happens with the name Amadeus. Shouldn't it be Amadeum or Amadeo?
I don't follow.

Incorrect grammar, since it's supposed to mean "love God." Maybe it's Portuguese!

edit: though I guess that doesn't make sense since there's nothing wrong with sic semper tyrannis

Also ablative wouldn't work since it's a person and you'd need an "a," right? Is ab often left out in punchy phrases and mottos?

Amadeus · Post by **Amadeus** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:35 pm

Amadeus is supposed to mean "Love God", no? Then why is "deus" in the nominative? Perhaps it is just bad grammar or perhaps it's Portuguese, as Agrippa says.

spiphany · Post by **spiphany** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:21 am

Amadeus is supposed to mean "Love God", no? Then why is "deus" in the nominative?

This has to do with word-formation, not inflection. I'm not an expert in this, and I don't have the book which discusses this with me right now or I could give some good examples, but generally in forming compounds, the syntactic relationship between the parts of the compound is not indicated, and only the uninflected form is used (the only exception I can think of is that sometimes a plural will appear if the modifier is thought of collectively). English, German, and I assume Portuguese, all work exactly the same way. Amadeus ends in 'eus' because it is a masculine noun, so it can decline.

euphony · Post by **euphony** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:02 am

Why the hatin' on Rusty? He asked a simple and honest question.

Lucus Eques · Post by **Lucus Eques** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:31 am

Amadeus wrote:Amadeus is supposed to mean "Love God", no? Then why is "deus" in the nominative? Perhaps it is just bad grammar or perhaps it's Portuguese, as Agrippa says.

Spiphany explained it quite well, but for the sake of examples, what about the original Greek of your pseudonym and of my middle name, Amadeus, THEOPHILOS. The dissolved words would be "theoÃ» phÃlos," or even "theÃ´i phÃlos," yet this is not the form of the compound noun. Take a more syntactically similar Greek name, TIMOTHEOS, which might be translated as "love God" as well, or certainly "honor God." The compound nature of the nouns negates any inflections.

euphony wrote:Why the hatin' on Rusty? He asked a simple and honest question.

rustymason wrote:I don't need a lecture from some ill-mannered know-it-all brat about Wikipedia, thank you.

Lucus Eques wrote:Pax, amici.

No hating from me, Euphony. I'm sure Rusty's a fine fellow; I just wanted any miscommunications to be cleared.

Chris Weimer · Post by **Chris Weimer** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:59 am

Thank you Lucus for coming to my defense. Rusty, I didn't mean any harm, but do try to look at some informed sources instead of relying on what the οι πολλοι say, or even how they say it.

Cheers from a bratty know it all, whose formal education in Latin and Greek apparently means nothing.

Deudeditus · Post by **Deudeditus** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:07 pm

Perhaps it is just bad grammar or perhaps it's Portuguese, as Agrippa says.

Agrippa was a funny cat, then.

haha.. Portuguese.

Just thought I'd lighten the mood. Sic semper gravibus.

cheers,
-Jon