Ben-Hur Translation Page 5: Messala's Cruel Revenge

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bedwere
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Ben-Hur Translation Page 5: Messala's Cruel Revenge

Post by bedwere » Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:06 am

Many thank for corrections and comments!

Page 5

Ben-Hur’s ears are assailed by cries and crashing timbers as the Roman legionnaires spread havoc through the house in their grim search….

Ploratus hominum ac fragor tignorum in aures Benhur invadunt, dum Romani milites stragem dant per domum truculenter investigantes.

Κλαυθμοὶ ἀνθρώπων τε καὶ πάταγος δοκῶν ἐπιπίπτουσιν τοῖς τοῦ Βενὼρ ὦσιν, τῶν Ῥωμαίων στρατιωτῶν ὀλεθρὸν φερόντων διὰ τῆς οἰκίας σκληρῶς διαζητούντων.

The ruthless beasts are striking down our servants, shattering the chamber doors! A woman’s shriek! It is my mother!

Istæ immisericordes bestiæ deiciunt famulos, frangunt ostia! Clamorem mulieris: Immo matris meæ.

Ταῦτα τὰ ἀνελεήμονα θηρία καταβάλλουσιν τοὺς ὑπηρέτας, ῥήγνυσιν τὰς θύρας τῶν δωματίων. Κραυγὴν γυναῖκός τινος· τῆς ἐμῆς δὴ μητρός.

Don’t be afraid, mother! I committed no act of violence. I will reason with them and they will understand it was an accident.

Noli timere, mater. Nullum enim facinus admisi. Ego cum eis ratiocinabor. Intelligent casu istud accidisse.

Μὴ φοβηθῇς, μῆτερ. Οὐδὲν γὰρ βίᾳ ἐποίησα. Ἐγὼ τοίνυν μετ' αὐτῶν διαλογίσομαι ὥστε συνήσουσιν ἐκ τύχης τοῦτο γενόμενον.

No, my son! Nothing will stop these brutes! Leave me to their punishment. Flee for your life!

Nequaquam, fili! Nihil enim retinebit istas bestias! Relinque me pœnis eorum. Fuge, salva te!

Μηδαμῶς, τέκνον. Οὐδὲν γὰρ παύσει ταῦτα τὰ θηρία. Ἀλλὰ κατάλιπέ με ταῖς τιμωρίαις αὐτῶν. Καὶ σύγε φεῦγε, σῷζε σαυτόν.

Messala, has been drawn to the scene by the soldiers’ shouts, and is ready to betray his former friend.

Messala, militum clamore illuc tractus, paratus est prodere illum qui amicus fuerat.

Μεσσάλας, ταῖς τῶν στρατιωτῶν βοαῖς ἐκεῖσε προσαχθείς, ἑτοῖμός ἐστι προδοῦναι τοῦτον ὅς ποτ’ ῆν φίλος.

Why, that one is only a boy! Can he be the assassin? There is no doubt about it! Arrest them all! I know that they are sworn enemies of Rome!

Sed ille tantummodo puer est! Numquid ille est percussor? Dubitandum non est. Comprehende eos omnes. Novi enim eos jurasse inimicitiam in Romam.

Tί; εκεινοσὶ μόνον παῖς ἐστιν. Ἆρα μὴ ἐκεῖνος δὴ φονεῦς; Οὐκ ἔστιν ἀμφισβητέον. Σύλλαβε πάντας αὐτούς. Οἶδα γὰρ αὐτοὺς ὀμωμοκότας ἐχθρὰν εἰς τὴν Ῥώμην.

Hear the truth and help me, Messala! Don’t let them drag away my mother and sister, I pray you!

Vero audito, adjuva me, o Messala! Ne sinas eos matrem ac sororem abstrahere, te obsecro.

Ἀκούσας τἀληθῆ, βοήθησόν μοι, ὦ Μεσσάλα. Μὴ ἐπίτρεπε αὐτοῖς τήν τε μητέρα καὶ τὴν ἀδελφὴν ἀποσπᾶν, δέομαί σου.

No, I’ll not stand between you and your just desert. Our friendship is dead, and I am a loyal Roman.

Nolo absolvere te a justo. Nam amicitia nostra mortua est. Ego fidelis Romanus sum.

Οὐκ ἐθέλω σ’ ἀπαλλάξαι ἀπὸ τοῦ δικαίου. Ἡ γὰρ φιλία ἡμῶν τέθνηκεν. Ἐγὼ πιστὸς Ῥωμαῖός εἰμι.

As Messala scorns Ben-Hur’s plea and returns to the street, Tirzah falls into the soldiers’ hands. All hope for escape is now lost!

Dum Messala, contempta Benhuris deprecatione, in viam revertitur, Thersa incidit in manus militum. Nunc spes fugiendi omnis perdita est.

Τοῦ Μεσσάλα καταφρονήσαντος τὴν τοῦ Βενὼρ δέησιν καὶ εἰς τὴν ὁδόν ἐπιστρεφομένου, ἡ Θερσὰ ἐμπίπτει εἰς τὰς χεῖρας τῶν στρατιωτῶν. Νῦν δ' ἡ ἐλπὶς τοῦ ἐκφύγειν πᾶσα ἀπόλωλεν:

In the hour of Thy vengeance, oh Lord, let mine be the hand to punish Messala!

In hora ultionis tuæ, Domine, mea sit manus quæ castiget Messalam!

Ἐν τῇ ὥρᾳ τῆς τιμωρίας σου, Κύριε, ἐμὴ εἴη ἡ κολάσουσα τὸν Μεσσάλαν χείρ.

Links to all translated pages.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 5: Messala's Cruel Revenge

Post by mwh » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:26 am

ploratus hominum, to balance fragor tignorum and to dissociate ploratus from tignorum.

dum truces Romani milites stragem dant per domum exquirentes: exquirentes really needs an object. scelestum? investigantes a better verb to use? — In your p.4 captions (where I looked to see who or what they’re after, silly me) my eye catches exquirite domum. Better perscrutamini.
truculente with the participle rather than truces?
Sim. in the Gk, e.g. σκληρως (w/o φοινικων).

Just looking through the rest:

frangentes ostia cubiculorum, deiciunt famulos nostros: Better deiciunt famulos, frangunt …. You want to be graphic.
Similarly with the Gk.

Mater fecit: —immo matris meae!
γυναικός τινος—της εμης δη μητρος

Ego ergo: better without ergo?
qui autem: del. autem (and also qui?)

παρενομησα better βιᾳ εποιησα
εγω μεν γαρ better εγω τοινυν (no μεν)
οι δε better ωστε?
συμπτωμα better εκ τυχης, or (συνησουσι) τουτο, ως ουχ εκων επραξα.

Οὐχί, τέκνε: μηδαμως, τεκνον.
Ἀπόλιπ' ἐμοῦ κολασθησομένης: αλλα καταλιπε με ως κολασθησομενην
Σύγε φύγε εἰς σωτηρίαν: και συγε (good) φευγε, σωζε σαυτον.

τῇ τῶν στρατιωτῶν βοῇ ἐκεῖσεν εἱλκυσμένος: ταις βοαις των στρατ. εκεισε/ενθαδε προσαχθείς (aor. not perf.)

quondam amicum: illum qui amicus fuerat
τον παλαι φιλον implies he still is his friend, from way back. τόν ποτε φιλον or better τουτον ὅς ποτ’ ην φιλος.

ille vero: sed ille?
Ἐκεῖνος δὴ: τί; εκεινοσὶ

Numquid ipse: Del. ipse, and αυτος. Or ille, and αρα μη εκεινος δη φονευς;

Οὐκ ἔστιν ἀπορητέον. Better αλλ’ ουκ αμφισβητεον.

Μηδαμῶς θήσομαι μεταξὺ σοῦ καὶ τῶν δικαίων: ουδαμως.
θησομαι better e.g. ευρεθησομαι, but the sentence is very ungreek. You should render the meaning, not the words. E.g. ουκ εθελω σ’ απαλλαξαι απο του δικαιου.

Ἡ γὰρ μὲν φιλία ἡμῶν τέθνηκεν: del. μεν.
ἐγὼ δὲ πιστὸς Ῥωμαῖός εἰμι. δε better γαρ, or del.

Nunc spes fugendi omnino perdita est: fugiendi omnis.
Νῦν δ' ἡ ἐλπὶς φεύξεσθαι πάντως ἀπόλωλεν: του εκφυγειν πασα.

Hope you can see the rationale for these. Please don’t simply adopt them!

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 5: Messala's Cruel Revenge

Post by bedwere » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:40 am

Thanks, Michael. I'll digest them.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 5: Messala's Cruel Revenge

Post by bedwere » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:26 pm

Is σύμπτωμα so bad? After searching, I got it from the LXX:

1 Samuel 6:9

9 καὶ ὄψεσθε, εἰ εἰς ὁδὸν ὁρίων αὐτῆς πορεύσεται κατὰ Βαιθσαμύς, αὐτὸς πεποίηκεν ἡμῖν τὴν κακίαν τὴν μεγάλην ταύτην, καὶ ἐὰν μή, καὶ γνωσόμεθα ὅτι οὐ χεὶρ αὐτοῦ ἧπται ἡμῶν, ἀλλὰ σύμπτωμα τοῦτο γέγονεν ἡμῖν.

Also you recommend προσαχθείς, aorist passive participle. Is it because the perfect προσηγμένος would mean that Messala is still being drawn?

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 5: Messala's Cruel Revenge

Post by mwh » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:07 pm

Not so bad, no. But your LXX model is not typical. συμπτωμα tends to be a technical term (of rhetoric, philosophy, medicine), and to say something happened by accident ordinary Greek would be far more likely to use εκ τυχης or απο τυχης (both very common). The form of expression, σύμπτωμα τοῦτο γεγονός, is awkward too by normal Greek standards, “this has happened as a symptoma.”
Aorist would be better too (γενόμενον).

My alternative ουχ εκων επραξα might suggest he did it against his will, under compulsion. ουκ εθελων, unwittingly, without meaning to, is what I meant (like Actaeon inadvertently catching sight of Diana bathing, say; cf. Callim. H.5, ουκ εθελων bis). But I like that it acknowledges his agency.

As to προσαχθείς aor. No the perfect would not mean he was still being drawn—that would be present. The English uses the perfect, like you, but in subordinating it as you (well) do, the aor. is what’s called for. Perf. would mean that he was drawn and is still drawn, standing there drawn, in a drawn state (as if drugged or hypnotized, say). The aor really is needed here: having been drawn, he’s ready; as in e.g. having wrecked the house, they arrest the mother. (Latin would do the same if only it could!) Only if you were to keep it indicative could you use perfect as in the English.

Hope this makes sense,
Michael

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 5: Messala's Cruel Revenge

Post by bedwere » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:41 pm

Ah, I was about to use κατὰ συμβεβηκός. But I stopped myself, thinking that quoting Aristotle in that context would have really been atypical. :D

Thanks again!

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 5: Messala's Cruel Revenge

Post by bedwere » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:54 am

I think I understand why you corrected some aorists into presents, since the emphasis here is on Ben-Hur fleeing, a process that is still going on, although not for long.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 5: Messala's Cruel Revenge

Post by mwh » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:44 am

As it happens, I threw away weeks of my life editing a stultifyingly arid rhetorical treatise in which τα συμβεβηκοτα and τα συμπτωματα were two separate subcategories (each of them further subdivided, of course).

Being in the mood I took a look at the captions to p.4, just the Greek ones. They seem pretty good to me, but I offer some possible minor improvements.

Frame 2. βαρουσης better predicative, εκ της χειρος του Β βαρουσης (sc. τον κεραμον)

φυλαξασθε οἱ κατω

αλεδφε; (question)

τυπτοι: τύψαι aor better

3. απεκτεινε: perf., απέκτονε

4. Ἑώρακα· εἶδον

ἀκοντίζοντα metaphor inappropriate in this context. ῥίπτοντα

διαζητησατε OK but I’d prefer present, διαζητεῖτε (Get a search going, and continue with it until he’s found)

δει αυτον μη εκφυγειν weak. δει παντως μη εκφ., or just παντως μη εκφυγετω

5. Εἰσπεσοῦνται οὖν καθαιρεῖν bad construction. εισπεσόντες ουν καθαιρήσουσι

φυγε εις σωτηριαν: φευγε, σωζε/σωσον σαυτον

Μη η μητηρ τρωθησεται: You mean τρωθησηται, with comma before μή?

συμπτωμα: εκ τυχης :D

This is quite the wrong forum for this! (And the wrong thread I suppose. Sorry.)

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 5: Messala's Cruel Revenge

Post by bedwere » Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:19 am

Thanks again!

Μη η μητηρ τρωθησεται: You mean τρωθησηται, with comma before μή?
Well, I thought that just writing "ἡ μήτηρ τρωθήσεται" wouldn't represent Ben-Hur's feelings correctly, since that has not happened yet and he doesn't want this to happen. But maybe I should add the comma or remove μή.

If you refresh the page, you'll see that συμπτωμα has already fallen out of favor. :wink:

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 5: Messala's Cruel Revenge

Post by mwh » Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:48 am

It was μη with future I wondered about. But τρωθησηται would be a monstrosity. I guess I meant to write τρωθῇ. Or βλαβῃ, βλαφθῃ. Your instinct against the plain statement is a very sound one.
M

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 5: Messala's Cruel Revenge

Post by bedwere » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:26 pm

Latine
Image

Ἑλληνιστί
Image

Of course, electrons are not set in stones! :wink:

Please check also page 6.

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