From Cato's instructions - Gerundive

[testsuda]

Dear all,

Here is a sentence from Cato's instructions:

Cum animaduerterem, quam plurimos grauiter in uia morum errare, succurrendum opinioni eorum et consulendum famae existimaui = When I noticed how very many go seriously wrong in their manner of living I concluded that I must apply a corrective to their belief and take counsel of the experience of mankind

Here, (succurrendum) and (consulendum) are gerundives, and basing on the context of the sentence, I see it must have the role of accusative - noun

Literally, succurrendum opinioni eorum et consulendum famae existimaui = I feel obliged to correct opinions of those (people) and obliged to inquire tradition

However, that use of gerundive is very strange for me, cause according to my textbooks, gerundive usually goes with preposition when taking accusative case, and even in that case, it must be an attributive adjective - not noun

Please kindly give me your advice to make this clearer

Sincerely yours,

[Hylander]

"according to my textbooks, gerundive usually goes with preposition when taking accusative case, and even in that case, it must be an attributive adjective - not noun"

You seem to be confusing the gerund with the gerundive. These are easily confused, because they are similar in form. The gerund is a verbal noun; the gerundive is a passive verbal adjective indicating necessity or obligation.

Here, the neuter of the gerundive is used impersonally to indicate necessity or obligation. esse is omitted but understood with both gerundives: [mihi] succurrendum opinioni eorum [esse] et consulendum famae [esse] existimaui.

The dative mihi (grammatically, a dative of interest, or something like that) is understood as the logical subject of these verbs from existimavi: I thought I must/ought to/should come to the aid of their thinking" etc.

This can be viewed as an instance of the infinitive of what Allen & Greenough calls the "second periphrastic conjugation:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ythp%3D194

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ythp%3D196

Hope this helps.

[mwh]

One small footnote. Since mihi is not in the text, he doesn’t actually say that it’s he who must come running to help. As far as the Latin goes, it could be anyone. (”There-is-to-be-a-running-to-the-aid-of their thinking.”) In translation it’s easiest to say “I must,” as the context makes it clear that he’s proposing to do it himself. But if we want to be true to the Latin we could translate differently, e.g. “I thought a corrective had to be applied to their belief” or “I reckoned there was urgent need of a corrective to their way of thinking …”.

Direct speech: “Succurrendum (est) opinioni eorum.” (Nominative)
Indirect speech: "Existimavi succurrendum (esse) opinioni eorum.” (Accusative)
This gerundive use (whether impersonal as here or “personal” as in Delenda [est] Carthago) often goes without est/esse.
Sub-curro and consulo take dative, hence opinioni and famae.

I’m not entirely sure what “consulendum famae” means. Hardly "take counsel of the experience of mankind." Rather “consult the interests of their repute”?

[testsuda]

Dear brothers,

Very interested, although I have passed all chapters of "Latin for Beginners" of D'ooge, I still face some obstacles when reading the real text, and your support is crucial for me

I took that sentence from a website that collects Latin passages for Beginners and Intermediate

That seems that I am now under-beginner

Sincerely yours,

[calvinist]

Dear brothers,

Very interested, although I have passed all chapters of "Latin for Beginners" of D'ooge, I still face some obstacles when reading the real text, and your support is crucial for me

I took that sentence from a website that collects Latin passages for Beginners and Intermediate

That seems that I am now under-beginner

Sincerely yours,

Cato isn't really easy Latin. He was read by young beginners in Latin mostly for the moral guidance, like using the book of proverbs to teach English, but it's not light reading by any means. Don't feel bad if you struggle with him. Proverbs have pros and cons in foreign language learning: on the one hand they are short and easy to memorize and contain a lot of useful vocabulary and idiom, on the other hand going through a list of proverbs in a foreign language can be daunting unless one has quite a large vocabulary because the topic and word usage can change drastically from one sentence to the next in a way that doesn't happen in narrative.