Ben-Hur Translation Page 1

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Ben-Hur Translation Page 1

Post by bedwere » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:12 pm

This is the beginning of the translation project here announced. Thank you for your help!

Page 1

Vengeance was Ben-Hur’s guiding passion in an era rocked by brutal oppression and power-mad conquest.

Desiderium ultionis regebat animum Benhur, cum tanta perturbatio esset ut alii immaniter opprimerentur, alii a dominandi concupiscentibus vincerentur.

Ὁ τῆς τιμωρίας πόθος ἐκράτει τῆς καρδίας τοῦ Βενώρ, τοσαύτης ταραχῆς οὔσης ὥστε τοὺς μὲν ἀγρίως κατατρίβεσθαι, τοὺς δὲ ὑπὸ τῶν κυριεύειν ἐπιθυμούντων νικᾶσθαι.

As a proud and wealthy prince of Jerusalem, he was jealously proud of the heritage of his Jewish race.

Qui cum animosus divesque princeps Jerosolymorum esset, æmulans superbiebat Judaici generis traditione.

Ὁ δὲ μεγαλόφρων τε καὶ πλούσιος ἄρχων τῶν Ἱεροσολύμων ὤν, ζηλοτυπῶν ὑπερεφρόνει τῇ τοῦ Ἰουδαϊκοῦ γένους παραδόσει .

But he chafed under the Roman persecution that had reduced his country, Judea, from a proud kingdom to a rebellious province of the roman conquerors.

Moleste autem ferebat Romanorum iniuriam, qui Judæam patriam ejus victam ab excelsoregno in provinciam seditiosam redegissent.

Χαλεπῶς δ' ἐφέρει τὴν ἀδικίαν τῶν Ῥωμαίων, τῶν Ἰουδαίαν τὴν πατρίδα αὐτοῦ νικησάντων καὶ ἀφ' σεμνῆς βασιλείας εἰς ἐπαρχίαν στασιωτικὴν καταγαγόντων.

His startling saga begins when he, at seventeen, defied the insults and threats of a Roman youngster who had been his closest friend.

Tunc terribilis fabula ejus incipit, cum ille septendecim annos natus despicit contumeliam minasque Romani adolescentis cujusdam, qui olim amicissimus ei fuerat.

Τότε ὁ δεινὸς μῦθος αὐτοῦ ἄρχεται, ὅτε ὁ ἑπτακαίδεκα ἔτη γεγονὼς καταφρονεῖ τὴν ὕβριν τε καὶ τὰς ἀπειλὰς Ῥωμαίου νεανίου τινός, ὃς πάλαι φίλτατος αὐτῷ ἐγεγόνει.

But later he was to rise from the living hell of a galley slave to fame and fortune. But when the crisis came, Ben-Hur found neither power nor vengeance - but peace and the Prince of peace.

Postea autem, in servitutem in navi redactus, velut ex Tartaro, surrexit dives et gloriosus factus. Cum autem tempus venisset, Benhur nec potestatem adeptus est nec ultionem: sed pacem et vero Principem pacis.

Ἔπειτα δέ, ἐν νηῒ καταδεδουλωμένος, ὡς ἐκ τοῦ Ταρτάρου, ἀνέστη πλούσιος καὶ ἔνδοξος γεγονώς. Ἐπειδὴ δὲ ὁ καιρὸς ἦλθεν, ὁ Βενὼρ οὔτ’ ἐξουσίας ἔτυχεν οὔτε τιμωρίας· ἀλλὰ εἰρήνης καὶ δὴ Ἄρχοντος εἰρήνης.
Last edited by bedwere on Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 1

Post by calvinist » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:50 pm

I haven't looked through the whole thing yet, but right away I felt the name Ben-Hur should be made into a 3rd declension noun: Benhur, ūris, ūrī, ūrem, ūre. I know people feel differently about such things but I like to avoid indeclinable nouns at all cost.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 1

Post by bedwere » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:55 pm

I think I'll follow St. Jerome's compromise solution in declining Jewish names when there is a chance of misunderstanding. :D

Should I rather have

in provinciam seditiosam redegissent.

amicissimus ei fuisset.

:?:

Isn't the rule that if you can remove a subordinate without losing the meaning of your sentence, the subordinate should be in the subjunctive?

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 1

Post by calvinist » Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:37 am

bedwere wrote:Should I rather have

in provinciam seditiosam redegissent.

amicissimus ei fuisset.

:?:

Isn't the rule that if you can remove a subordinate without losing the meaning of your sentence, the subordinate should be in the subjunctive?
I've never heard that rule, but wouldn't that mean that every relative clause would require the subjunctive?

I think the indicative is acceptable here, but the subjunctive would probably be better since there is an assumption of cause. According to A New Latin Syntax relative clauses require the indicative when they merely identify. The subjunctive can be used to express a causal or concessive idea though:

"This type of subjunctive can equally well convey an idea in the speaker's mind that the fact stated in the relative clause accounts for, or that it is in opposition to, the action stated in the main clause. Hence the generic clause developed a causal and a concessive sense." (A New Latin Syntax 188)

He gives an example from Plautus: te omnes amant mulieres, qui sis tam pulcher.

The amicissimus... I think is better left indicative, since the relative clause seems to be purely for identification, although it could perhaps be understood as being concessive.

To me, the subjunctive reads fine in both, but I read mostly EL where it sometimes seems the subjunctive can be used in anything that isn't a main clause.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 1

Post by bedwere » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:40 pm

I found it. It only applies to relative propositions depending from one in the subjunctive or in the infinitive and that cannot be removed without altering the meaning.

Existimemus eos, qui rem publicam auxerint, esse immortalem gloriam consecutos (Cic.)

You can't get rid of qui rem publicam auxerint. But in

Caesar cohortes, quae in stationibus erant, secum profisci jussit (Caes.)

you can remove quae in stationibus erant.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 1

Post by calvinist » Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:09 pm

Yes, that makes more sense: when the relative clause is essential to the meaning of the sentence (like the causal/concessive idea stated in A New Latin Syntax) then the subjunctive is used, but when it is purely for identification (thus functioning merely as an adjective) the indicative is used. Your example from Cicero is causal, and the one from Caesar is merely identification. Ambo didicimus. Mox te videbo, amice!

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 1

Post by bedwere » Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:21 pm

Libenter te familiamque tuam videbo, carissime.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 1

Post by Markos » Sun Sep 27, 2015 3:51 pm

bedwere wrote:Τότε ὁ δεινὸς μῦθος αὐτοῦ ἄρχει, ὅτε ὁ ἑπτακαίδεκα ἔτη γεγονὼς καταφρονεῖ τὴν ὕβριν τε καὶ τὰς ἀπειλὰς Ῥωμαίου νεανίου τινός, ὅς πάλαι φίλτατος αὐτῷ ἐγεγόνει.
ὃς.

The active ἄρχει is certainly okay here, but I think the middle ἄρχεται is more common in prose for "begin." I'm not at all suggesting you change it, just that you think about it. I'm more used to ἄρχεται from the NT, but again ἄρχει is probably fine.

Aside from these two quibbles, your Greek is fantastic!

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 1

Post by bedwere » Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:48 pm

Χάριν ἔχω σοι, ὦ φίλτατε.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 1

Post by bedwere » Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:49 pm

Χάριν ἔχω σοι, ὦ φίλτατε.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 1

Post by daivid » Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:58 pm

Would it not make sense to have the Greek part of the project on the Learning Greek sub group rather than here.

I only discovered this thread because I was curious to see what threads Markos was participating in. I would never normally look at any Latin thread as it is a language of which I know almost nothing.

Further as ( I assume) the aim is to get Greek/Latin texts to place in the bubbles of the comic and not to create a faithful translation there is no need for the Greek an Latin versions to be very close to each other. Mixing them in one thread is hence very confusing for no gain.
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 1

Post by bedwere » Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:06 pm

The Latin and Greek are very close, like the New Testament versions. One of the purposes of this exercise is to show similarities and differences between the languages. Another is to encourage those who already know one to learn the other. Beside, having everything in one place is more convenient.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 1

Post by daivid » Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:58 pm

bedwere wrote:The Latin and Greek are very close, like the New Testament versions. One of the purposes of this exercise is to show similarities and differences between the languages. Another is to encourage those who already know one to learn the other. Beside, having everything in one place is more convenient.
Umm, I think it is mistake to make part of the aim as to show similarities and differences in the languages. There is a big lack in easy Greek texts and comics are (all other things being equal) going to be easier than pure text. But adding extra aims like that will have a cost if it leads to more awkward or convoluted expressions. Isn't it inevitable that on occasion you will have to reject a wording that would be ideal for one language for a less than optimum one because the ideal one would diverge in meaning to greatly to the one chosen for the other language?

But as you are doing the work I guess I should wish you luck because I'm sure the end result will be worth while despite my above reservations.
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 1

Post by bedwere » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:17 pm

Here's the page with the translated texts:

Latine
Image

Ἑλληνιστί
Image
Last edited by bedwere on Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 1

Post by daivid » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:17 pm

bedwere wrote: Ὁ τῆς τιμωρίας πόθος ἐκράτει τῆς καρδίας τοῦ Βενώρ, τοσαύτης ταραχῆς οὔσης ὥστε τοὺς μὲν ἀγρίως κατατρίβεσθαι, τοὺς δὲ ὑπὸ τῶν κυριεύειν ἐπιθυμούντων νικᾶσθαι.
Even after leaving it a day I'm still stuck on the first line
My best stab is:
The desire for vengeance ruled the heart of Ben Hurr as the turmoil was so great that on the one hand the ??? aggressively oppressed on the the other, the ??? succumbed to the passion to rule.

I presume that the bit after ὥστε is an infinitive result construction and so each of the τοὺς-s represents a subject but what is that subject represented by each τοὺς?
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 1

Post by bedwere » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:24 pm

daivid wrote:
bedwere wrote: Ὁ τῆς τιμωρίας πόθος ἐκράτει τῆς καρδίας τοῦ Βενώρ, τοσαύτης ταραχῆς οὔσης ὥστε τοὺς μὲν ἀγρίως κατατρίβεσθαι, τοὺς δὲ ὑπὸ τῶν κυριεύειν ἐπιθυμούντων νικᾶσθαι.
Even after leaving it a day I'm still stuck on the first line
My best stab is:
The desire for vengeance ruled the heart of Ben Hurr as the turmoil was so great that on the one hand the ??? aggressively oppressed on the the other, the ??? succumbed to the passion to rule.

I presume that the bit after ὥστε is an infinitive result construction and so each of the τοὺς-s represents a subject but what is that subject represented by each τοὺς?
What I meant was:

some were aggressively oppressed, others were conquered by those who desired to rule.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 1

Post by daivid » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:23 pm

bedwere wrote:
What I meant was:

some were aggressively oppressed, others were conquered by those who desired to rule.
Thanks. Being so focused on how the subject is normally put in the accusative in an infinitive construction I forgot that even here an accusative may simply be an accusative.

Much appreciated.

EDIT
The infinitives are passive so the accusative does denote the subject after all. However, the basic point that, as I encounter the infinitive construction only now and then, I got got confused by things, which I ought to have had no trouble with, remains.
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