Iri

[swtwentyman]

"Iri" is the passive infinitive of "ire". What exactly does this mean, and how can it be used? I've had a hard time with the concept of a passive "to go", and Wheelock's didn't mention it at all save for supplying "itum" in the principal parts of "eo", and with forming the future passive infinitive, but it came up in my reading today. I was able to understand the sense of the clause without knowing "iri" but I'd really like to know just how "to go" can be passive. Would it be like "the route was gone by him"?

ed: Whoops, I looked at the sentence again and "ductum iri" is, indeed, an infinite. I now see my error (I had totally forgotten about the future passive infinitive until I made this post: I had misremembered that it's formed with the gerundive + "iri", but it's the supine, as I found when I looked it up) but am curious in general as to passive forms of "ire". Thank you.

[Qimmik]

The passive forms of eo, ire are usually used impersonally -- itur in antiquam silvam (Vergil, Aeneid Book 6.179): "they go into an ancient forest" (this is historical present, i.e., "they went"). The subject is unspecified (but understood from the context).

Allen & Greenough 203a, 208d, 372:

Thus inflected [i.e., with passive forms], the forms of eō are used impersonally in the third person singular of the passive: as, itum est (§ 208. d). The infinitive īrī is used with the supine in -um to make the future infinitive passive (§ 193. N.).

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.04.0001

d. The passive of intransitive verbs is very often used impersonally (see synopsis in § 207):—

ventum est, they came (there was coming).
pūgnātur, there is fighting (it is fought).
ītur, some one goes (it is gone).
parcitur mihi, I am spared (it is spared to me, see § 372).

[*] Note.--The impersonal use of the passive proceeds from its original reflexive (or middle) meaning, the action being regarded as accomplishing itself (compare the French cela se fait).

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.04.0001

372. Intransitive verbs that govern the dative are used impersonally in the passive (§ 208. d). The dative is retained (cf. § 365):

“ cui parcī potuit ” (Liv. 21.14) , who could be spared?
“nōn modo nōn invidētur illī aetātī vērum etiam favētur ” (Off. 2.45) , that age (youth) not only is not envied, but is even favored.
“ temporī serviendum est ” (Fam. 9.7) , we must serve the exigency of the occasion.

[*] Note.--In poetry the personal construction is sometimes found: as, “—cūr invideor” (Hor. A. P. 56) , why am I envied?

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.04.0001

[swtwentyman]

Thanks for all the help! I never knew any of this. I'll have to keep an eye out.

[ÓBuadhaigh]

Thank you, from me too. I decided to search before asking. I just ran up against this one in LLPSI CAP. XXIII today.

Could, therefore, 'verberātum īrī' be translated as, 'to be going to be changed', and 'verberātum īrī' as 'to be going to be beaten' ? - all excusing the murder of English syntax, of course.

[Qimmik]

Supine + iri is the periphrastic future passive infinitive.

Allen & Greenough 193 Note:

193. A Periphrastic form, as the name indicates, is a “roundabout way of speaking.” In the widest sense, all verb-phrases consisting of participles and sum are Periphrastic Forms. The Present Participle is, however, rarely so used, and the Perfect Participle with sum is included in the regular conjugation ( amātus sum , eram , etc.). Hence the term Periphrastic Conjugation is usually restricted to verb-phrases consisting of the Future Active Participle or the Gerundive with sum .
[*] Note.--The Future Passive Infinitive, as amātum īrī , formed from the infinitive passive of eō, go, used impersonally with the supine in -um, may also be classed as a periphrastic form (§ 203. a).

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.04.0001

verberatum iri -- "to be going to/about to be beaten"

mutatum iri -- "to be going to/about to be changed"

Note that the supine does not agree in gender and number with the subject.

For the future active infinitive, the form is: future participle (accusative) + esse. As with the perfect passive infinitive, esse is frequently omitted.

The future participle agrees in gender and number with the accusative subject.

verberatum/verberatam/verberatos/verberatas esse. (It's difficult to imagine a sentence that would require a neuter subject for this verb.)

mutaturum/-am/-os/-as/-a esse

[ÓBuadhaigh]

Thanks again, Qimmik. Now that I have your explanation, I can see it clearly. The idea of a passive infinitive for 'to go', was something I found very difficult to get my head around.

[calvinist]

To clarify what Qimmik said, the supine is always -um in this construction. In fact, it can't change number or gender, it's not an adjective but a type of verbal noun (like the infinitive and gerund). Although the supine + iri construction seems awkward at first it's easy to recognize and construct if you're doing composition. Just take it as a whole: necatum iri "about to be killed/going to be killed". If you try to make sense of the parts it will remain awkward.

[ÓBuadhaigh]

Thanks for underlining that point. The supine is, of course, indeclinable.

Your advice to take the construction as a whole is good, but for me, I really have to pick things apart before I can move on. Still, the passive infinitive 'īrī' unpicked, I can now move on.

[swtwentyman]

One thing I noticed about the future passive infinitive -- though I may be wrong -- is that it's basically just an ordinary verb of motion + accusative supine construction.

[calvinist]

One thing I noticed about the future passive infinitive -- though I may be wrong -- is that it's basically just an ordinary verb of motion + accusative supine construction.

I think your analysis is correct. "dixit urbem captum iri, lit. 'he said that there was a movement towards capturing the city'. Here urbem is the object of the supine captum..." (A New Latin Syntax)

Basically, it's just the impersonal passive use of ire combined with a supine of purpose like cubitum eo. The verb ire gives the construction a future flavor like the English "I'm going to buy a new car". The author goes on to say that the construction was reanalyzed as a compound future passive infinitive: "the phrase -um iri came to be regarded as a future passive infinitive, and that it was no longer perceived that the accusative word was the object of the supine rather than the subject-accusative of an accusative and infinitive phrase." (A New Latin Syntax)