How valuable is composition to the process of learning Latin? I'm interested in composing in Latin, but I'm not sure how to begin. I know composition books are out there, but I'm intimidated. As for my proficiency, I'm slowly working my way through Caesar's Gallic Wars.
I've glanced at a composition book, but it seemed to be entirely grammar review. Is this what I should be working through?
Background: I have a vague wish to compose prose works (and poetry if I ever progress that far) in Latin in order to help add some liveliness to the discipline. I want to light that creative spark. My primary focus is English, but I know Milton composed prose and poetry in Latin and Greek, and so did many other English writers. Ideally I would like to compose straight into Latin, not just make translations of my own writing.
Latin Composition
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Kynetus Valesius
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Hi Thesaurus !
I'll share my thoughts with you on composition and self-expression. Books specifically on "composition" contain structured translation exercises going from English to Latin, no? The purpose of these books is to teach us how to write, writing being a virtual synonym for composition. As I write this, I am putting together or composing my thoughts. Well, the books on composition do indeed constitute a time-tested method for teaching us how to express our thoughts (which come to us in English usually, right?) in another tongue, in this case Latin. Because, however, of some mental deficiencies peculiar to me I simply don’t have the patience for simply working through a composition book on my own. I wish I did!
What I do is go directly to task of trying to express my own thoughts in Latin without having done the intervening preparatory work (slogging through a composition book). This is really frustrating especially at the beginning (which is where I am now again) but with practice the ink should flow more freely.
This is called “learning by doing.? This arduous process, I think can be accelerated by adding 2 elements: reading a lot of neo-latin and LISTENING to a lot as well. The idea is that the brain and ear will be so “conditioned? that when you go to write something the words will appear in the brain as if by magic. But it is not magic. Rather it is using the mind’s natural neurological organization for language aquisition. I also believe that reciting passages aloud can be of great benefit. I recently met a Peruvian who had learned to speak English rather fluently in less than a year. Being able to speak well, he naturally has a step-up when it comes to writing. Asked how he had done it, he said that he had studied a lot and had recited to himself a lot and watched a lot of TV.
Study of grammar, vocabulary and composition is the formal method of language acquisition – the ability to understand, speak, and write. Simply listening, gradually comprehending, immersing one self, progressing in expression from babbling to eloquence – that is the “natural? method. Children brought up in literate households are able to learn to write (compose) in their native tongues generally with very little exposure to the formal method. For adults attempting to learn a foreign language, neither method is sufficient. I have examples in my own family. My mother in law learned English just by moving to this country. After many years of constant exposure (immersion), she learned to speak and understand most things. She never studied at all. She learned completely naturally without recourse to STUDY of any kind. The problem is she does not now speak standard English but rather the broken English of many Spanish speaking adults in this country – and this after 30 years of using the natural method. My wife, in contrast, who arrived in this country at the same time speaks and WRITES (composes) perfectly because she applied both methods simultaneously by immersing herself and by formal STUDY.
Returning to composition – hey, I see I have wondered more than a little bit – an ideal composition program (IMHO) would combine formal study (working through a composition book, say), informal writing in which you try to express your own thoughts in latin, and repeated recitation and hearing of selected neo-latin materials.
As for poetry, you will be delighted to know that I have NOTHNG to say about specifically how to become a poet! I will remark however that you are from alone in your desire to resurrect latin as a language of artistic expression for our times. There are quite a number of poets out there. There is one 19-year –old kid on GLL who actually aspires to be the Catulus or Horatius of our age. Join the Grex to learn more and read his works in progress! A book length history in verse of Mexico was recently published by an aging catholic priest. There are many other active latin poets. Is it possible for a poet in our time to equal the poets of antiquity? Yes, why not ? To conclude (thank god!), I applaud your plan to raise yourself to highest levels of latinitas where members of a very select tribe of modern humanists unfold modern themes both formally in prose and artistically in poetry! People who formally study latin but who never aspire to self-expression in latin are the very persons, the very malfactors ( !) who are responsible for the mistaken belief that latin is a dead language. They are drones and drudges! Dixi . Valeas beneque ut tibi sit! Kynetus
I'll share my thoughts with you on composition and self-expression. Books specifically on "composition" contain structured translation exercises going from English to Latin, no? The purpose of these books is to teach us how to write, writing being a virtual synonym for composition. As I write this, I am putting together or composing my thoughts. Well, the books on composition do indeed constitute a time-tested method for teaching us how to express our thoughts (which come to us in English usually, right?) in another tongue, in this case Latin. Because, however, of some mental deficiencies peculiar to me I simply don’t have the patience for simply working through a composition book on my own. I wish I did!
What I do is go directly to task of trying to express my own thoughts in Latin without having done the intervening preparatory work (slogging through a composition book). This is really frustrating especially at the beginning (which is where I am now again) but with practice the ink should flow more freely.
This is called “learning by doing.? This arduous process, I think can be accelerated by adding 2 elements: reading a lot of neo-latin and LISTENING to a lot as well. The idea is that the brain and ear will be so “conditioned? that when you go to write something the words will appear in the brain as if by magic. But it is not magic. Rather it is using the mind’s natural neurological organization for language aquisition. I also believe that reciting passages aloud can be of great benefit. I recently met a Peruvian who had learned to speak English rather fluently in less than a year. Being able to speak well, he naturally has a step-up when it comes to writing. Asked how he had done it, he said that he had studied a lot and had recited to himself a lot and watched a lot of TV.
Study of grammar, vocabulary and composition is the formal method of language acquisition – the ability to understand, speak, and write. Simply listening, gradually comprehending, immersing one self, progressing in expression from babbling to eloquence – that is the “natural? method. Children brought up in literate households are able to learn to write (compose) in their native tongues generally with very little exposure to the formal method. For adults attempting to learn a foreign language, neither method is sufficient. I have examples in my own family. My mother in law learned English just by moving to this country. After many years of constant exposure (immersion), she learned to speak and understand most things. She never studied at all. She learned completely naturally without recourse to STUDY of any kind. The problem is she does not now speak standard English but rather the broken English of many Spanish speaking adults in this country – and this after 30 years of using the natural method. My wife, in contrast, who arrived in this country at the same time speaks and WRITES (composes) perfectly because she applied both methods simultaneously by immersing herself and by formal STUDY.
Returning to composition – hey, I see I have wondered more than a little bit – an ideal composition program (IMHO) would combine formal study (working through a composition book, say), informal writing in which you try to express your own thoughts in latin, and repeated recitation and hearing of selected neo-latin materials.
As for poetry, you will be delighted to know that I have NOTHNG to say about specifically how to become a poet! I will remark however that you are from alone in your desire to resurrect latin as a language of artistic expression for our times. There are quite a number of poets out there. There is one 19-year –old kid on GLL who actually aspires to be the Catulus or Horatius of our age. Join the Grex to learn more and read his works in progress! A book length history in verse of Mexico was recently published by an aging catholic priest. There are many other active latin poets. Is it possible for a poet in our time to equal the poets of antiquity? Yes, why not ? To conclude (thank god!), I applaud your plan to raise yourself to highest levels of latinitas where members of a very select tribe of modern humanists unfold modern themes both formally in prose and artistically in poetry! People who formally study latin but who never aspire to self-expression in latin are the very persons, the very malfactors ( !) who are responsible for the mistaken belief that latin is a dead language. They are drones and drudges! Dixi . Valeas beneque ut tibi sit! Kynetus
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thesaurus
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Thank you for your enthusiastic reply, KV!
It makes sense that I should expose myself to as much Latin as possible in order to write it, but how do I deal with the different styles? For example, should I strive to emulate Cicero and classical writing, or should I write in whatever way seems best to me? I know my prose won't be very elaborate, and will probably conform to English syntax. At the same time, I don't want to be a shadow of a Roman anymore than I want my English to be an immitation of Shakespeare or Hemingway.
Also, say I wanted to immerse myself in neo-Latin; how might this be done? Should I be reading Vatican publications for examples of contemporary Latin composition? I know I can get the news in Latin, but this is only a few paragraphs a week. I'd like to conduct vaguely academic work in Latin, and I'm not sure where to find examples of this. Who are some good neo-Latin writers I could read? Philosophers like Descartes come to mind, but he is hardly contemporary. I've looked at a copy of Harry Potter in Latin, but I'm more interested in reading original compositions than translations.
I'm told that part of the reason that Latin passed out of use is that its practicioners imposed artificial restrictions on its use. During Classical revivals everyone wants to write like an ancient Roman, and as a result the language was artificially stuck in the past and stiffled. How does one keep Latin relevant and lively and at the same time stay faithful to the spirit of the language?
It makes sense that I should expose myself to as much Latin as possible in order to write it, but how do I deal with the different styles? For example, should I strive to emulate Cicero and classical writing, or should I write in whatever way seems best to me? I know my prose won't be very elaborate, and will probably conform to English syntax. At the same time, I don't want to be a shadow of a Roman anymore than I want my English to be an immitation of Shakespeare or Hemingway.
Also, say I wanted to immerse myself in neo-Latin; how might this be done? Should I be reading Vatican publications for examples of contemporary Latin composition? I know I can get the news in Latin, but this is only a few paragraphs a week. I'd like to conduct vaguely academic work in Latin, and I'm not sure where to find examples of this. Who are some good neo-Latin writers I could read? Philosophers like Descartes come to mind, but he is hardly contemporary. I've looked at a copy of Harry Potter in Latin, but I'm more interested in reading original compositions than translations.
I'm told that part of the reason that Latin passed out of use is that its practicioners imposed artificial restrictions on its use. During Classical revivals everyone wants to write like an ancient Roman, and as a result the language was artificially stuck in the past and stiffled. How does one keep Latin relevant and lively and at the same time stay faithful to the spirit of the language?
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Lucus Eques
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The last question asked can be most easily answered in this way:
http://chat.yle.fi/yleradio1/latini/index.php
http://chat.yle.fi/yleradio1/latini/index.php
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Kynetus Valesius
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amice care thesaure dear friend thesaurus
interalia et haec scripsisti among other things you wrote these (words)
Magister Lucus has already given you an excellent link. The writers at that nuntii latini forum site tend to be younger and hipper than those where I usually hang out, which would be Grex Latin Loquentium which is stodgier, let us say. One of the star writers apud gregem is a certain gentleman from Pisa by the name of Victorius who regularly cranks out longish essays on historical and literary themes. Other contributors are among the top latinists in the world! If you decide to join the Grex and can't figure it out, let me know and I'll point the way. In the meantime start at google.
One excellent writer who even attempts scientific themes would be the LEO LATINUS or Nicolaus Gross. He has his own web page but some of whose output can be sampled at http://www.alcuinus.net/ephemeris/ Take some time to explore the various sidebar buttons. The people who write there are very advanced practicioners !
Finally it is not true that fluency in latin ever DIED out. That's basically a myth foisted on us by latin teachers, who unless they can speak latin and write it well, are to be considered enemies of latinity (only my opinion, folks, don't get bent). There have always been people in the West (and not just with church ties), who, following in the footsteps of Erasamus of Rotterdam, have sought to recreate the received midieval and antique versions of latin for modern purposes. I am not an expert but I think that the best writers today may be using various renaissance authors as models. I wrote extensively about this living tradition last year before I disgraced myself with ungentlemanly behavior and retreated into self-imposed exile and penance (it's a story not worth repeating).
Anway, good luck! And keep us apprised!
Kynetus
interalia et haec scripsisti among other things you wrote these (words)
quoad adtinet ad inceptum operum latine scibendorum valde probo ! so far as producing work in latin is concerned, I heartily approve !I'd like to conduct vaguely academic work in Latin, and I'm not sure where to find examples of this. Who are some good neo-Latin writers I could read?
Magister Lucus has already given you an excellent link. The writers at that nuntii latini forum site tend to be younger and hipper than those where I usually hang out, which would be Grex Latin Loquentium which is stodgier, let us say. One of the star writers apud gregem is a certain gentleman from Pisa by the name of Victorius who regularly cranks out longish essays on historical and literary themes. Other contributors are among the top latinists in the world! If you decide to join the Grex and can't figure it out, let me know and I'll point the way. In the meantime start at google.
One excellent writer who even attempts scientific themes would be the LEO LATINUS or Nicolaus Gross. He has his own web page but some of whose output can be sampled at http://www.alcuinus.net/ephemeris/ Take some time to explore the various sidebar buttons. The people who write there are very advanced practicioners !
Finally it is not true that fluency in latin ever DIED out. That's basically a myth foisted on us by latin teachers, who unless they can speak latin and write it well, are to be considered enemies of latinity (only my opinion, folks, don't get bent). There have always been people in the West (and not just with church ties), who, following in the footsteps of Erasamus of Rotterdam, have sought to recreate the received midieval and antique versions of latin for modern purposes. I am not an expert but I think that the best writers today may be using various renaissance authors as models. I wrote extensively about this living tradition last year before I disgraced myself with ungentlemanly behavior and retreated into self-imposed exile and penance (it's a story not worth repeating).
Anway, good luck! And keep us apprised!
Kynetus
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Episcopus
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thesaurus,
your aims are admirable - i agree that a creative spark needs to be added to the discipline full of history/sewing classes and wealthy people all similar to eachother, having been guided through an easy life by money, with consequently no ingenium at all. it is no wonder that this discipline is dying out. the composition books are invaluable as a beginning springboard: they should be completed, however arduous and indeed monotonous this task may be, to acquire the technical skills needed.
this must not be the end though - in terms of creativity this is only the beginning. composition books give you the english, so there is little to no original work, apart from a particularly warming unorthodox rendering here and there. too many learn to compose latin well, and pass exams with the highest of marks, yet do no justice to the skills they have acquired or, perhaps, have no creative ability in themselves, despite some raw technical ability (not mentioning any names), to lay down some proper original pieces. this is what is to be done after your completion of a composition book. for prose, get north & hillard, of course keep reading original latin and read a solid detailed grammar, e.g. A&G, and complete north and hillard. after this you should if you have the inspiration write some original works of prose, but if yo ass can shake but the beat, move on to verse in whose desire i have seen a few people's toes rubbing on the soles of their shoes. this should be fixed soon. good luck.
your aims are admirable - i agree that a creative spark needs to be added to the discipline full of history/sewing classes and wealthy people all similar to eachother, having been guided through an easy life by money, with consequently no ingenium at all. it is no wonder that this discipline is dying out. the composition books are invaluable as a beginning springboard: they should be completed, however arduous and indeed monotonous this task may be, to acquire the technical skills needed.
this must not be the end though - in terms of creativity this is only the beginning. composition books give you the english, so there is little to no original work, apart from a particularly warming unorthodox rendering here and there. too many learn to compose latin well, and pass exams with the highest of marks, yet do no justice to the skills they have acquired or, perhaps, have no creative ability in themselves, despite some raw technical ability (not mentioning any names), to lay down some proper original pieces. this is what is to be done after your completion of a composition book. for prose, get north & hillard, of course keep reading original latin and read a solid detailed grammar, e.g. A&G, and complete north and hillard. after this you should if you have the inspiration write some original works of prose, but if yo ass can shake but the beat, move on to verse in whose desire i have seen a few people's toes rubbing on the soles of their shoes. this should be fixed soon. good luck.
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ÓBuadhaigh
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May I take the opportunity this thread offers to chuck in my tuppence worth and get some advice for me too?
What do our resident experts think of the alternative approach of the authors of these books who try to get the student to practise composition not through translation but through paraphrasing etc Latin passages?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-La ... F8&s=books
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Reading-Exercis ... F8&s=books
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Readings-Exerci ... F8&s=books
Many thanks for any opinions expressed!
Seán
What do our resident experts think of the alternative approach of the authors of these books who try to get the student to practise composition not through translation but through paraphrasing etc Latin passages?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-La ... F8&s=books
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Reading-Exercis ... F8&s=books
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Readings-Exerci ... F8&s=books
Many thanks for any opinions expressed!
Seán
There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.