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Lucus Eques
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Post by Lucus Eques » Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:52 pm

Amadeus, wonderful recording! You're well on your way to fluent oral proficiency in Latin! Really great. It's nice to hear a Spanish accent in Latin; naturally the ancient language was full of this variety; for by our variety, augemus sermonem nostrum.

BPQ, terrific Tacitus! I really like it. For you, and for Amadeus both, although I was not familiar with these texts from which you read, I understood every word and followed along perfectly. It was really enjoyable. I hope to hear more!
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Post by annis » Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:00 pm

I have spoken to Jeff, and we have his support to create an audio section for Latin. He says there's bandwidth and disk space to use, so we'll use it.

However, both Jeff and I are pretty busy at the moment. If someone could act as a single point of contact for me, to gather all this information, etc., that would be very helpful. I can handle basic web page setup and file management on the Textkit server, but I'm not the person to produce any of the text content, and it would be good to have at least some discussion explaining what the recordings are aiming at. A list of references, both web sites and books (if there are any other than Vox Latina to worry about) would be good, too.

I'll watch this thread a little more carefully, but it might be wise for whoever will to act as contact to PM me once that's decided.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

Hu

Post by Hu » Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:46 am

Superbus!
annis wrote: but I'm not the person to produce any of the text content, and it would be good to have at least some discussion explaining what the recordings are aiming at. A list of references, both web sites and books (if there are any other than Vox Latina to worry about) would be good, too.
I could do that. Other relevant books:

The Sounds of Latin (Kent)
The Pronunciation of Greek and Latin (Sturtevant)
The Latin Language (Palmer)
New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin (Sihler)

I don't know of as many websites as I do for Greek, but let me look around a little.

Edit:
Phonemic Length in Latin
Latin Poetry and Reading Verse
Viva Voce
Wilfried Stroh recites Vergil

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Post by bellum paxque » Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:07 am

I didn't bother checking the links offered in this postby benissimus, but some of them may be useful.
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Post by Hu » Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:21 am


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Post by cantator » Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:23 pm

Hu wrote:These appear to be good (i.e., accurate):
http://www.rhapsodes.fll.vt.edu/Latin.htm
http://www.princeton.edu/~clip/
Interesting. The Flash presentations at Princeton are very cool, but too short. The Propertius example is only a fragment of the whole poem, I don't know why they couldn't have included it entire.

Sonkowsky's reading of Horace 1-22 was engaging. I noted that he uses English short e and i sounds, both of which I thought were unused in CL pronunciation. He's also very sing-song in his pitch variance, I prefer a plainer recitation.

Anyway, all the recordings I've heard indicate that we're on the right track with our own versions, and that there is still considerable discrepancy between scholars as to how the language really sounded.

Another note: The reading of Pindar at the Princeton site clearly ignores the accents as written. The problems of the pitch indicators in Greek and the matter of ictus in Latin are (IMPO) two of the most important issues facing oral recitation in those languages. Frankly, I believe that reading Greek without at least attempting some pitch variance is like speaking Chinese without regard to the pitch levels in that language, i.e. it's not really Chinese without the pitches. Ictus in Latin is tougher, since there are no orthographic indicators to help, but I'm planning to continue studying the relationship of ictus to accent in Latin verse. Fortunam ad me volete ! :)

A thought: The Greeks likely used musical instruments to accompany the lyric poems, and there may have even been short dance forms. The Romans appear to have simply acquired the verse forms, i.e. without the musical accompaniment. Ergo quaero: Did the Latin poets know that music and dance ?

Despite my carping (and largely uninformed) criticism, I'm just pleased as can be to see (and hear!) this material. It should be brought to the attention of classics instructors and students everywhere, and I hope Textkit provides a handy link-farm for these and other readings.

Hu, thank you for these links ! :)
Similis sum folio de quo ludunt venti.

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Post by arillio » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:04 am

Dear Cantator,

I have just listened to the 'Latin Audio Examples' that you posted. Wow! That was fun. I hope you will consider putting "The Metamorphoses of Ovid" on your list. It is so very suitable for your style, with that 'reverb' and all -- I can just imagine the opening "In nova fert animus mutatas dicere formas..."

Thanks very much for the examples.

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Post by cantator » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:36 am

arillio wrote:Dear Cantator,

I have just listened to the 'Latin Audio Examples' that you posted. Wow! That was fun. I hope you will consider putting "The Metamorphoses of Ovid" on your list. It is so very suitable for your style, with that 'reverb' and all -- I can just imagine the opening "In nova fert animus mutatas dicere formas..."

Thanks very much for the examples.
You are most welcome, thank you for listening to them. Be sure to check out the other readings linked in various messages throughout this thread. There's some variance in presentation, but none of us claim to be reading "just like the Romans". :)

Interaxus has already asked for some Ovid, so I'll probably read some selections. I think the story of Pyramus & Thisbe would make a good selection, and possibly Niobe's tragic speech. Btw, I'm reading the story of Jason and Medea now. Ovid is truly wonderful.
Similis sum folio de quo ludunt venti.

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Post by Interaxus » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:55 pm

Hi,

Does anyone else find the professors’ performances somewhat strained and over-dramatic? For example:
http://www.rhapsodes.fll.vt.edu/juvenal.htm
http://www.rhapsodes.fll.vt.edu/martial.htm

Since we will never know exactly how the Romans themselves declaimed their poetry or prose, perhaps the rhetorical restraint of the Textkittens is no more anachronistic than the professors' declamatory style. Maybe it's better attuned to contemporary ears.

I have question on a certain detail. The lady professor at
http://www.rhapsodes.fll.vt.edu/seneca.htm
pronounces suos as su-os, tuis as tu-is, tua as tu-a, tuos as tu-os, diem as di-em with a distinct break between the vowels almost as though there were a glottal stop (as in Cockney ke’l for kettle). What theory of pronunciation justifies that?

I hasten to add that I’m really glad the professors put their offerings on-line. Despite my (strictly lay) reservations, I find their readings instructive and fun to listen to. A great learning resource in combination with the Latin and English texts.

Cantator: as a musical man, what do you think of this approach:

http://ablemedia.com/ctcweb/consortium/ ... intro.html

Select Program II – Miser Catulle (Catullus 8) and “Listen to the poem sung in latin?. Personally, I’m hooked.

Cheers,
Int

Hu

Post by Hu » Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:16 pm

Interaxus wrote:pronounces suos as su-os, tuis as tu-is, tua as tu-a, tuos as tu-os, diem as di-em with a distinct break between the vowels almost as though there were a glottal stop (as in Cockney ke’l for kettle). What theory of pronunciation justifies that?
None, other than the reader's own laziness and incompetence at the proper sound of Latin.

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Post by cantator » Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:17 pm


Similis sum folio de quo ludunt venti.

Hu

Post by Hu » Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:20 pm

cantator wrote:As far as I can tell Orff dispensed with quantity, so the versification isn't right.
Quare I despise Orff's works.

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Post by Interaxus » Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:13 pm

Hu: Well, I confess I love Orff's Carmina Burana. :twisted: In fact, was quantity still religiously observed by medieval munks?

Cantator: I've heard but never really taken to Catulli Carmina but I must give them another hearing (despite vowel-length violations).

Cheers,
Int

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Post by cantator » Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:22 pm

Hu wrote:
cantator wrote:As far as I can tell Orff dispensed with quantity, so the versification isn't right.
Quare I despise Orff's works.
What, all three of them ? ;)

I love some of his settings of the Carmina Burana. The metrics of the poetry are well-suited to his new-found style (he destroyed all previous works), and he was a good melodist with the material. If he knew about the extant music for the Medieval poetry it clearly had no influence on his own tunes. And in his day no-one had even begun to actually perform secular Medieval music, so he was free to approach the poems in his own way.

Orff's CB was seminal in getting me into Latin. Not long after hearing it I read Helen Waddell's "The Wandering Scholars" and I was hooked. Pound's literary criticism was another spur.

But these days I prefer listening to the realizations by the New London Consort and other contemporary performers of Medieval music. I still crank up Orff's CB now and then, especially to hear his setting of the Archpoet's masterpiece (too bad he didn't do the whole poem).
Similis sum folio de quo ludunt venti.

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Post by cantator » Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:24 pm

Interaxus wrote:In fact, was quantity still religiously observed by medieval munks?
Dummodo bibendi. :)
Cantator: I've heard but never really taken to Catulli Carmina but I must give them another hearing (despite vowel-length violations).
I think what worked in the CB just doesn't make it in that one. He did something similar with poems by Sappho and (I think) other Greek lyric poets in the third installment of his trilogy, equally unsuccessful. There are good reasons the whole thing is rarely performed, but the CB will always be a hit. Just my two drachmas, of course.

Let us know what you think of the Catulli Carmina via Carl Orff.

Almost forgot to mention: I've added a recording of the Copa Surisca to this site :

http://linux-sound.org/latin-audio-examples/

I hope you enjoy it. There are a few lines I'd like to do over, but not today. :)
Similis sum folio de quo ludunt venti.

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Post by Deudeditus » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:39 am

Amadeus, well done, amice. my iPod will be graced by thine voice.

-Jon

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Post by gildardo » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:56 am

Hmmm... I will admit I haven't read the whole thread -- I will do so eventually, but as I've only found it a couple of hours ago and I've been doing other things, I've only skimmed a bit. I have read the first couple of pages, and have listened to some of cantator's and the last amadeus' audio.

Actually, I have been eager to hear some spoken Latin -- classical Latin, that is.

There's at least one link I've found somewhere -- I'll post it later -- where some academic people post some examples of their pronounciation. Well, I don't want to repeat a link, so I will read the whole thread first.

However I do want to add my two cents for now: I am perfectly bilingual in both Spanish and English (I've spoken both languages most of my life, and I've got university degrees from both Mexican and American institutions), and I can tell the BIG difference between the Bs and Ps, and Ts and Ds in both languages.

I also speak some French, and I know for a fact that these consonants are pretty much the same in both languages. I don't speak Italian, but from what I have heard, I can say they are also the same as in French and Spanish -- I could be wrong of course.

So, I have been under the assumption that Classical Latin's Ps, Bs, Ts, and Ds are essentially the same as in modern Spanish or French (or Italian, unless they are different for it :) ). So, whenever I practice pronouncing Latin, I use my Spanish version of those consonants instead of the English ones -- oh, I also know a little German, and the same consonants are closer to the English ones than the Spanish-French versions.

Not that I didn't like cantator's pronounciation, though! :D I really enjoyed it.

I did notice on Amadeus' pronounciation that consonant V sounded more like a Spanish U, whereas I try to pronounce it more like an English W, with probably a little more frontal articulation -- so as to justify its later transformation into a modern V (as in volcano) sound. I also try my hardest to make the accent of words more "tonal" than show a distinctive stress on a syllable. This is hard, as I am working on my best guess... :?

Oh well, I don't have a microphone to record my own speech and have it critiqued. I'll see if I can borrow one from someone; or better yet, I'll see if I can buy an inexpensive one.
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a useful link from TADW_Elessar

Post by cantator » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:11 pm

Here's a good link posted in the Classical/Medieval thread :

http://manybooks.net/titles/lordfranetext058rlat10.html

The Roman Pronunciation Of Latin, by Frances Lord. It goes through each letter of the Latin alphabet, with copious commentary from Martius Victorinus, Priscian, Munro, et al. I'm really enjoying this book. It's a freely downloadable PDF (donations accepted) and is nicely viewable on the Adobe Acrobat Reader.

However, I do take issue with his remark re: "... the tongue in which Cicero spoke and Horace sung". We have no indication that Horace even came close to an instrument, and there's little or no evidence that any of the classical-era Latin lyrics were composed with melodies. I've asked about the music for Catullus's epithalamia, and I think Horace's Carmen Saecularum may have been intended for musical accompaniment. But it seems we know less about the music of the ancient world than we do about the pronunciation of its languages.

It's also endearing to read that Munro had a "conviction" regarding the relationship of Latin orthography to its actual sound. Munro and Ellis are scholastic giants, it's nice to know that sometimes even the Titans have to go with their gut-feelings. :)

TADW_Elessar: Gratias ago tibi !
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Post by TADW_Elessar » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:40 pm

TADW_Elessar: Gratias ago tibi !
Nihil est, vero. Gratias potius agimus ei qui librum scripsit! :wink:
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Post by bellum paxque » Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:07 am

gilardo said:
So, I have been under the assumption that Classical Latin's Ps, Bs, Ts, and Ds are essentially the same as in modern Spanish or French (or Italian, unless they are different for it ). So, whenever I practice pronouncing Latin, I use my Spanish version of those consonants instead of the English ones -- oh, I also know a little German, and the same consonants are closer to the English ones than the Spanish-French versions.
gilardo, I'd love to hear your own rendition of some Latin once you've managed to acquire a decent microphone. Also, I'm really interested in the difference you mention between Romance consonants and Germanic consonants. Being unfluent in Spanish and imperfectly familiar with French, I'm not really sure what this difference means (i.e. sounds like). Of course, some differences are obvious, such as Spanish b/v, but I'm not sure how the larger issue would affect the pronunciation of Latin. Maybe you could record a short sample of the same passages first with English consonants and next with Spanish ones? It would be highly illustrative at least for me.

At any rate, I'm glad you found this thread - and I hope you have many pleasant hours here at textkit.

Regards,

David
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Post by Lucus Eques » Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:24 am

David, if you have some time for Skype, I could show you the differences.

The best model we have available for Latin consonants is the basic Italian one. Simply, Germanic consonants, like our own, particularly in initial position are highly aspirated, while Latin ones not nearly as much, and Greek ones even less so (they had separate letters for the aspirated ones). Most significant is the centre of sound generated in the dentals of, say, English: 't' and 'd' are made primarily between the teeth, while in Spanish, Italian, Greek, and most languages these dentals are formed just with the tongue behind the upper teeth.
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Post by Hu » Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:39 pm

Lucus Eques wrote:English: 't' and 'd' are made primarily between the teeth, while in Spanish, Italian, Greek, and most languages these dentals are formed just with the tongue behind the upper teeth.
What do you mean? I say "t" and "d" with my tongue behind the upper teeth, on the aloveolar ridge. The tongue isn't "between the teeth" in any way.

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Post by jjhayes84 » Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:31 pm

I would like to express my thanks to those of you who have posting audio recordings in this topic. Personally, my reciting of Latin poetry has improved a hundredfold since listening to you guys. Kudos to you.

Josh
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Latin consonantal U

Post by cantator » Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:07 pm

As promised, here's a recording of some different approaches to pronouncing the Latin letter U as a consonant :

http://linux-sound.org/u-demo.mp3

I'm digesting the information I've been eating from Frances Lord's book, so I'm likely to make some changes in my pronunciation. Interesting stuff.
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Post by Amadeus » Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:08 pm

bellum paxque wrote:Of course, some differences are obvious, such as Spanish b/v, but I'm not sure how the larger issue would affect the pronunciation of Latin.
Just a quick comment, bellumpaxque. There is no difference between b and v in Spanish. There was a difference a long time ago, but not since the 1500's. Today, the only ones who keep insisting on the v as labiodental, are... well... let me quote an authority on this:
Rosenblat wrote:¿Puede imponerse igualmente la pronunciación labiodental de la v, como han querido muchos gramáticos, y la Academia durante siglos? Parece que la empresa ha fracasado del todo, y hoy solo algunos maestros trasnochados mantienen con terquedad la vieja doctrina.
This quote is from the 70's, and today even the Real Academia Española has abandoned the labiodental v.

Vale! :wink:
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

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Post by nostos » Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:27 pm

Amadeus wrote:
Rosenblat wrote:y hoy solo algunos maestros trasnochados mantienen con terquedad la vieja doctrina.
:lol:
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Post by Lucus Eques » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:53 am

Cantator, thank you for the recording; you have a good voice for it.

Why, again, is the English 'w' sound "clearly wrong"? It's hard to hear, though, since it ought to be vīv?mus, yet I only hear viv?mus. I brought up Lord's commentary a while back; you may have seen that thread. At length I was convinced that the evidence he præsented for consonantal 'u' was somewhat misleading, and ambiguous. Still, I'd like to go over it again.
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Post by bellum paxque » Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:19 am

Just a quick comment, bellumpaxque. There is no difference between b and v in Spanish. There was a difference a long time ago, but not since the 1500's. Today, the only ones who keep insisting on the v as labiodental, are... well... let me quote an authority on this:

Rosenblat wrote:
¿Puede imponerse igualmente la pronunciación labiodental de la v, como han querido muchos gramáticos, y la Academia durante siglos? Parece que la empresa ha fracasado del todo, y hoy solo algunos maestros trasnochados mantienen con terquedad la vieja doctrina.


This quote is from the 70's, and today even the Real Academia Española has abandoned the labiodental v.
Ah... I think my point was that there is a difference between the b in Spanish and the b in English, or so my somewhat fuzzy memory of high school suggests. Also, I'm struggling to understand thhe quote: the last bit is something like "and there are only a few masters? "trasnochados" (?!) holding with "terquedad" (?) to the old doctrine. So I get the drift but it sounds like there's a bit more punch there that I'm missing.
English: 't' and 'd' are made primarily between the teeth, while in Spanish, Italian, Greek, and most languages these dentals are formed just with the tongue behind the upper teeth.

What do you mean? I say "t" and "d" with my tongue behind the upper teeth, on the aloveolar ridge. The tongue isn't "between the teeth" in any way.
I too am baffled on this point. "Th," on the other hand, does seem to form between the teeth.

With regards,

David
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Post by Lucus Eques » Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:09 am

Ah yes, the between the teeth comment: I was never suggesting that the tongue were between the teeth when English 't' were articulated, for it is at the alveolar ridge, but instead that the source of our hissed, aspirated 't' is from between the teeth -- a reverse biting motion. This does not happen in the Mediterranean languages.
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Post by Hu » Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:09 am

Lucus Eques wrote:Ah yes, the between the teeth comment: I was never suggesting that the tongue were between the teeth when English 't' were articulated, for it is at the alveolar ridge, but instead that the source of our hissed, aspirated 't' is from between the teeth -- a reverse biting motion. This does not happen in the Mediterranean languages.
So what you're syaing is that the mouth opens when saying "t"? I think I understand you now.

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Post by Lucus Eques » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:24 am

Rather, that the teeth separate from a closed position, if at all.
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Post by cantator » Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:53 pm


Similis sum folio de quo ludunt venti.

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Post by Amadeus » Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:52 pm

bellum paxque wrote:Ah... I think my point was that there is a difference between the b in Spanish and the b in English, or so my somewhat fuzzy memory of high school suggests.
Oh, ok. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if you were taught that there's a difference between b and v. I myself was taught that and on ocassions I will make the v labiodental, though it's useless. Anyone will understand what I mean if I say "vaca" or "baca" (cow).
Also, I'm struggling to understand thhe quote:
It seems that the undertaking has failed completely, and today only a few antiquated teachers hold stubbornly to the old doctrine. :wink:
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

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Post by Amadeus » Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:02 pm

Francis E. Lord wrote:"V (U consonant) [is pronounced] nearly as in verve, but labial, rather than labio-dental; like the German W (not like the English W). Make English V as nearly as may be done without touch[ing] the lower lip to the upper teeth."
This is what I tried yesterday in my readings, i.e., a W with tighter lips, almost closed, and I noticed that "vestros" sounded, with the new pronunciation, like Spanish "vuestros". This is exciting. I think I'm gonna stick with this, and abandon the English W.
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

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Post by Lucus Eques » Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:50 pm


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Post by Lucus Eques » Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:59 pm


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Post by Lucus Eques » Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:46 pm


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Post by Amadeus » Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:20 pm

Lucus Eques wrote:Using the 'w' of English, the lips project forward and together (note that Nigidius Figulus says labiis, lips plural! both of them). However, with the English V, only the bottom lip projects forward! [...]

Might it have been the bilabial fricative as in b/v of Spanish for Nigidulus? Possibly, but English W is far more adept at projecting both lips forward than Spanish v/b.
Amadeus Luco s.p.d.,

My oh my. That was a very good read, Luke. It is obvious you are deeply in love with nostra lingua latina. And you are right, the German W is not a bilabial, but a labiodental fricative (I'm still learning the IPA alphabet). However, you still haven't explained the "spiritus" related with the latin V, which goes against its pronunciation as a labiovelar W. My impression is that the Latin V might be (as you suggest) a voiced bilabial fricative, which in Spanish corresponds to B in any other position that is not absolute initial and after a nasal (in those cases it is plosive: bestia, ambición), for example in "lobo".
Last edited by Amadeus on Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

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Amadeus
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Post by Amadeus » Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:24 pm

Lucus Eques wrote:As for the "wawa" sound of Latin U-consonant, whereby it sounds like English W and to Amadeus sounds like baby talk,
Whoa, wait a minute. The "Baba Wawa" I'm talking about is not baby-talk, but the SNL character played by Gilda Radner in mockery of Barbara Walters. Man, that's funny!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

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Post by nostos » Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:15 pm

Amadeus wrote:which in Spanish corresponds to B in any other position that is not absolute initial and after a nasal (in those cases it is plosive: bestia, ambición), for example in "lobo".
Aha! You made it clear for me, Amadeus! The whole tiome I was trying to think of where that b could be a voiced bilabial fricative rather than a voiced bilabial plosive . . . and that's it, yer right! I actually had to look it up in Intrroducing Phonetics, when Lucius said bilabial fricative, and then tentatively concluded that it doesn't happen in Mexico (must be those Castillians!) . . . but that's it, of course! The difference is subtle but definitly there.

I'm actually excited about phonetics! :oops:
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