Fairy tales in Latin

[kembreg]

I just bought this book.

In the first story, of the 3 littles pigs, there is this sentence:

Primus porcellus viro multum stramenti portanti occurit.

Now, "multum" means "bundle" and "stramenti" means "of straw" (in the genitive).

Why is "portanti" in the genitive?
It's the bundle he's carrying, and it should be in the accusative.
i.e.

Primus porcellus viro multum stramenti portans occurit.


Or is "multum" the accusative of "multus"?

Also, right at the beginning, they use "anus porca".

To me, this means "a piglike old woman".
Can "anus" really be used to translate "old woman pig"?

Look forward to hearing from you.

David

[Magistra]

Primus porcellus viro multum stramenti portanti occurit.

Now, "multum" means "bundle" and "stramenti" means "of straw" (in the genitive).

Why is "portanti" in the genitive?

"Portanti" is actually in the dative case.

The verb "occuro" requires dative case for its object; thus "viro" is in the dative.

"Portanti" is a present participle which describes "viro" and, therefore, is also in the dative case.

Or is "multum" the accusative of "multus"?

Yes.

Also, right at the beginning, they use "anus porca".

To me, this means "a piglike old woman".
Can "anus" really be used to translate "old woman pig"?

Without knowing the exact wording of the sentence, I would go with "old/elderly (female/woman) pig". Was the old pig, possibly the mother or grandmother, sending the "porcelli" out to get building materials?
If it's obvious from the context that she's female, I'd just say the "elderly pig".

Magistra

[kembreg]

Thanks for your reply.

OK, now I', totally lost.

Primus porcellus viro multum stramenti portanti occurit.

"Primus porcellus" is the subject.
"occurire" is the verb and takes the dative.

So...

Primus porcellus viro occurit.
The first pig meets a man

So fat so good.

viro multum stramenti portanti

Is "stramenti" in the genitive here?
Are you sure it's "a lot of straw" and not "multum" as a neuter noun meaning "bundle" and thus "a bundle of straw"?

What case is "stramenti" and why?
Why is "multus" in the accusative?
If it is in the accusative, where aren't both "stramentus" and "Portans" in the accusitive?

i.e.
viro multum stramentum portans


Thanks,

David

[Magistra]

Primus porcellus viro occurit.
The first pig meets a man

Sounds good. Since it's "porcellus", "little pig" would get across the diminutive form better. (-ellus, -ullus, -iolus = "little")

viro multum stramenti portanti

Is "stramenti" in the genitive here?
Are you sure it's "a lot of straw" and not "multum" as a neuter noun meaning "bundle" and thus "a bundle of straw"?

Genitive, yes. It's being used partitively here. Where in English an adjective-noun phrase is used to indicate quantity, in Latin a genitive is often used. E.g. satis pecuniae (enough of money) = enough money, nihil pecuniae (nothing of money) = no money, etc. A more literal translation of "multum stramenti" would be much/a great deal of straw, a lot of straw; however, I like your expansion into "a bundle".

Why is "multus" in the accusative?
If it is in the accusative, where aren't both "stramentus" and "Portans" in the accusitive?

i.e.
viro multum stramentum portans

"Multum" is the object of "portanti". What's he carrying? A lot of straw.

"Portanti" is dative to describe "viro". Who's doing the carrying? The man. It's a present participle which functions as an adjective in that it must agree with the noun it describes.

I hope this helps.

Magistra

[kembreg]

Yes.
Much clearer now.

I think that in this case "multum" is indeed the neuter noun "bundle".

Later in the story the say "fascem ramorum portanti", so

"a bundle of straw"
"a basket of branches"

Thanks again,

David

[bellum paxque]

Hello,

Where did you find this word multum, -i meaning "bundle"? It doesn't appear in Whittaker's Words, a computer dictionary that has a lot of really obscure entries. Neither is it in the Lewis and Short dictionary entry at Perseus.

Most likely, multum stramentum means "a lot of straw."

You'll find this construction (as explained by Magistra) very often in Latin. Here is another explanation.

[kembreg]

I found it in Langenscheid's dictionary

I look again.
I had misread.

The have multum, i n ein großer Teil = a big part

David

[mraig]

OLD lists "multum, -i" as a noun, meaning "a lot, a great quantity, etc", but it's sort of hair-splitting to do so. Obviously this is just the adjective used substantively as a noun, as can be done with just about any adjective. Here it's sort of a special case because it's such a common expression: multum + gen. = "a lot of X", but I'm not sure if the Romans would have actually considered this "multum" to be a different word from "multus, -a, -um" (as, indeed, the Romans didn't really consider nouns and adjectives to be in a different category anyway; they're both nomina).