Vocative case

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Ciraric
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Vocative case

Post by Ciraric » Tue May 30, 2006 5:35 pm

Is this simply used addressing somebody.

For example:

In the sentance, ''She has gone, son.'', son is in the vocative (if in latin)?

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Post by Odysseus » Tue May 30, 2006 9:36 pm

I doesn't seem right to use the vocative unless it's addressing someone emphatically. I usally implicitlty add "Oh ....." to see if it would make sense to use the vocative somewhere. There are a few exceptions, for example "God save the Queen" could go either way with the vocative.

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A better example.

Post by Ivansalgadogarcia » Tue May 30, 2006 9:56 pm

I think a best example of the vocative case is next:

Mother, please sweep my room.


In ths phrase, the Mother is in vocative case.
nam ista corruptela servi si non modo impunita fuerit, sed etiam a tanta auctoritate approbata, nulli parietes nostram salutem, nullae leges, aulla iura custodient. (Cic. Deiot. 30)

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More about the Vocative case.

Post by Ivansalgadogarcia » Tue May 30, 2006 10:00 pm

All the declisions cases only apply for nouns and adjectives, not for interjectiones like Oh. ... :roll:
nam ista corruptela servi si non modo impunita fuerit, sed etiam a tanta auctoritate approbata, nulli parietes nostram salutem, nullae leges, aulla iura custodient. (Cic. Deiot. 30)

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Vocative Case

Post by tjnor » Tue May 30, 2006 10:19 pm

There are a few exceptions, for example "God save the Queen" could go either way with the vocative.
Isn't this an example of the subjunctive ("Would that God save the Queen")?

Here is a website devoted to the subjunctive:
www.ceafinney.com/subjunctive/examples.html

Does anyone remember the old joke about the "pluperfect subjunctive"? It involves a fish.

Tim

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Post by Lucus Eques » Wed May 31, 2006 3:47 am

Ciraric, you are completely right. Odysseus, I'm afraid that assessment is not correct. A noun in the vocative case is merely when that noun is being addressed. All the following in boldface would be in the Latin vocative:

I'm going to leave, dad.

Hey, Jake, give me another spoon.

Ow! damn you, stupid table!

"God save the Queen" is an example of the English subjunctive, meaning "May God save the Queen." It is not the English vocative. In Latin it would be, "Deus Reginam seruet."

Tjnor, I do not know that joke; how does it go?
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Re: Vocative Case

Post by mraig » Wed May 31, 2006 4:07 am

tjnor wrote:

Does anyone remember the old joke about the "pluperfect subjunctive"? It involves a fish.
Do I detect a Mister Language Person reference?

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Post by Ciraric » Wed May 31, 2006 4:24 pm

Lucus Eques wrote:Ciraric, you are completely right
Call me vain but I love hearing that.

And thanks so much.
Lucus Eques wrote:"Deus Reginam seruet."
What makes that statement different from ''God is saving the Queen'' or ''God saves the Queen''? Thanks.

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Post by Silenus » Wed May 31, 2006 5:06 pm

Ciraric wrote: What makes that statement different from ''God is saving the Queen'' or ''God saves the Queen''? Thanks.
servo, servare is a first conjugation verb, so "God is saving/saves the Queen" would be a present indicative, which would have the form "servat".

Servet is in the subjunctive mood, making it a "hortatory" subjuntive (ie. let/may he save).

So "God saves the Queen" would be Deus Reginam servat.

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Post by Ciraric » Wed May 31, 2006 5:31 pm

Silenus wrote:
Ciraric wrote: What makes that statement different from ''God is saving the Queen'' or ''God saves the Queen''? Thanks.
servo, servare is a first conjugation verb, so "God is saving/saves the Queen" would be a present indicative, which would have the form "servat".

Servet is in the subjunctive mood, making it a "hortatory" subjuntive (ie. let/may he save).

So "God saves the Queen" would be Deus Reginam servat.
Thank you loads.

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Post by Kasper » Wed May 31, 2006 11:05 pm

Silenus wrote:
Ciraric wrote: What makes that statement different from ''God is saving the Queen'' or ''God saves the Queen''? Thanks.
servo, servare is a first conjugation verb, so "God is saving/saves the Queen" would be a present indicative, which would have the form "servat".

Servet is in the subjunctive mood, making it a "hortatory" subjuntive (ie. let/may he save).

So "God saves the Queen" would be Deus Reginam servat.
I think that is a matter of interpretation. Personally I agree with Lucus.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”

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Post by Silenus » Wed May 31, 2006 11:14 pm

Kasper wrote:
I think that is a matter of interpretation. Personally I agree with Lucus.
I'm confused...where do I interpret something differently from Lucus? (or am I just misunderstanding you?)

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Post by Kasper » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:00 am

Um... on closer inspection I seem to have put my foot in my mouth. I didn't quite read the thread thoroughly and thought you were saying that in God saves the queen the 'saves' is indicative, not subjunctive. I now see you did not. My apologies. :oops:
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”

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Post by Silenus » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:11 am

Kasper wrote:Um... on closer inspection I seem to have put my foot in my mouth. I didn't quite read the thread thoroughly and thought you were saying that in God saves the queen the 'saves' is indicative, not subjunctive. I now see you did not. My apologies. :oops:
No problem, I figured that's what it was. I don't think I can count the number of times I've misread posts and made confusing replies, just not on this forum, I hope, since this is only my fourth post :wink:.

Vale!

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Post by cdm2003 » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:18 am

Silenus wrote:
Kasper wrote:
I think that is a matter of interpretation. Personally I agree with Lucus.
I'm confused...where do I interpret something differently from Lucus? (or am I just misunderstanding you?)
I think the applicable difference here is "God save the Queen!" and "God saves the Queen." The traditional sentiment is using "save" which is what implies the subjunctive, i.e., "Would that God only save the Queen!" The statement using "saves" is a simple indicative, i.e., "God saves" or "God is saving." The latter erroneous construction is implies knowledge as opposed to sentiments. I suppose interpretation hinges on whether one is addressing God or whether one is addressing the Queen, though I can't see the verb being anything but hortatory in the historical usage.

Latin-wise, Christian authors don't use "Deus" in the vocative...at least I don't know particular examples so don't fault me for my ignorance. :D But since the vocative of "Deus" is, of all things, "Deus," you can't really go wrong whatever your intent (until you hit the verb :shock: ). Christian authors use the vocative, however, with "dominus," i.e., "Domine." For example the first line of St. Augustine's Confessiones: "Magnus es, Domine, et laudabilis valde."

I do think that "God save the Queen," when said to the Queen in all of its hortatorial splendor is as above, i.e., "Deus Reginam servet." If one wishes to address one's God regarding one's Queen, then "Serva Reginam, Domine!" is more appropriate.

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Post by Amadeus » Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:34 pm

cdm2003 wrote:Latin-wise, Christian authors don't use "Deus" in the vocative...at least I don't know particular examples so don't fault me for my ignorance. :D But since the vocative of "Deus" is, of all things, "Deus," you can't really go wrong whatever your intent (until you hit the verb :shock: ). Christian authors use the vocative, however, with "dominus," i.e., "Domine." For example the first line of St. Augustine's Confessiones: "Magnus es, Domine, et laudabilis valde."

I do think that "God save the Queen," when said to the Queen in all of its hortatorial splendor is as above, i.e., "Deus Reginam servet." If one wishes to address one's God regarding one's Queen, then "Serva Reginam, Domine!" is more appropriate.
Ah, but christians did use Deus with the vocative. For instance, I'm a Mass server and one of the firsts prayers I recite with the priest is: "Judica me Deus et discerne causam meam de gente non sancta; ab homine iniquo et doloso erue me. Quia tu es, Deus, fortitudo mea, quare me repulisti et quare tristis incedo dum affligit me inimicus..." And that prayer dates from the late Middle Ages, if memory serves me right.

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Post by edonnelly » Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:05 pm

cdm2003 wrote:If one wishes to address one's God regarding one's Queen, then "Serva Reginam, Domine!" is more appropriate.
I think this is a problem with English, where the subjunctive and imperatives have the same form. Is the intent really to give a command (serva) to God?



Now, what about that fish joke?
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See this.

Post by Ivansalgadogarcia » Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:25 pm

nam ista corruptela servi si non modo impunita fuerit, sed etiam a tanta auctoritate approbata, nulli parietes nostram salutem, nullae leges, aulla iura custodient. (Cic. Deiot. 30)

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Post by wetherby » Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:31 pm

Ciraric wrote:What makes that statement different from ''God is saving the Queen'' or ''God saves the Queen''? Thanks.
I think it's, "God save the Queen!"--old sport--here, just ask Silenus!
Silenus wrote:servo, servare is a first conjugation verb, so "God is saving/saves the Queen" would be a present indicative, which would have the form "servat".
So let's give three cheers for Her Majesty the Queen: "Hiphip-hooray, hiphip-hooray, hiphip-hooray!"
Servet is in the subjunctive mood, making it a "hortatory" subjuntive (ie. let/may he save).
Fine, but according to the college/gymnasium standard for English-speakers, Allen & Greenough, hortatory subjunctive is usually found in the second person--serves "may you save"--while the Latin third person more often goes by the name "jussive"!
So "God saves the Queen" would be Deus Reginam servat.
...et Libertas resonet! Amen
Last edited by wetherby on Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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The fish joke

Post by Didymus » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:18 pm

So a tourist comes into Boston and hails a cab. He really likes seafood, and so when he gets in he says to the cabbie, "Can you take me somewhere where I can get scrod?" The cabbie looks at him quizzically, strokes his chin, and finally shrugs and says: "Sure thing, pal. I get that request a lot ... it's just that I've never heard it in the pluperfect subjunctive before." *rimshot*

I think I first read this in one of Steven Pinker's books, but I'm not completely sure.

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Post by bellum paxque » Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:52 am

Fine, but according to the college/gymnasium standard for English-speakers, Allen & Greenough, hortatory subjunctive is usually found in the second person--serves "may you save"--while the Latin third person more often goes by the name "jussive"!
More precisely, the so-called hortatory subjunctive usually refers to the subjunctive used in the 1st person plural, roughly equivalent to the English "let's..."

For instance, here
A. A speaker uses the jussive subjunctive (iubeo) to express his will that an action take place (or not take place). The negative is ne. This subjunctive is usually seen in the first person, where it is sometimes called the hortatory subjunctive (if a statement) or deliberative (if a question), and in the third person.
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Post by zhongv1979 » Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:12 pm

Actually I have a question related with this thread. In Japanese, I know there is also a imperative mood for verbs, but it is considered very harsh, only used when addressing the subordinates in the army... Most of the time, a command is constructed using either of the several subjunctive construction. I wonder whether the Romans also have such an issue. Do they really use imperative to give command to their peers? It may be a cultural thing, but it sounds to me very rude...

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Re: The fish joke

Post by wetherby » Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:00 am

Didymus wrote:So a tourist comes into Boston and hails a cab. He really likes seafood, and so when he gets in he says to the cabbie, "Can you take me somewhere where I can get scrod?" The cabbie looks at him quizzically, strokes his chin, and finally shrugs and says: "Sure thing, pal. I get that request a lot ... it's just that I've never heard it in the pluperfect subjunctive before." *rimshot*

I think I first read this in one of Steven Pinker's books, but I'm not completely sure.
Remember to count the change in your pocket, me smilin' buckaroo, when you tell that joke in Manhattan!

Next time in picturesque London, when I ask for scone with my tea & biscuit: "...an' do what?" the blushing steward may snap back, "It's shop policy not to date the customer and, besides, I don't even know you!"

PS: bellum paxque, thanks for the grammar review!
Last edited by wetherby on Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by bellum paxque » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:41 am

Actually I have a question related with this thread. In Japanese, I know there is also a imperative mood for verbs, but it is considered very harsh, only used when addressing the subordinates in the army... Most of the time, a command is constructed using either of the several subjunctive construction. I wonder whether the Romans also have such an issue. Do they really use imperative to give command to their peers? It may be a cultural thing, but it sounds to me very rude...
The present subjunctive is often used for polite commands. Also, it's possible to use the expression, amabo te, etc, which roughly means "please." Another variant is quaeso, literally "I request."

There are probably more options that I'm not familiar with.

-David
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Post by Iulianus » Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:55 am

bellum paxque wrote:
Actually I have a question related with this thread. In Japanese, I know there is also a imperative mood for verbs, but it is considered very harsh, only used when addressing the subordinates in the army... Most of the time, a command is constructed using either of the several subjunctive construction. I wonder whether the Romans also have such an issue. Do they really use imperative to give command to their peers? It may be a cultural thing, but it sounds to me very rude...
The present subjunctive is often used for polite commands. Also, it's possible to use the expression, amabo te, etc, which roughly means "please." Another variant is quaeso, literally "I request."

There are probably more options that I'm not familiar with.

-David
It's also possible to use the construction of 'noli/nolite + infinitive' - which was considered polite (Cicero uses it when addressing the jury). Of course, that only counts for negative commands, i.e. prohibitions.
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Post by bellum paxque » Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:22 pm

It's also possible to use the construction of 'noli/nolite + infinitive' - which was considered polite (Cicero uses it when addressing the jury).
I wonder if what is polite in the courtroom would be polite in conversation. In court, of course, a high degree of formality is essential, but that doesn't mean that you use the same type of constructions as you do in polite conversation. For instance, an advocate would never address the jury thus: "If you'd just give me the verdict I'm looking for, that would be great."

Yet that's the wheedling form of request used frequently in English today (cf. Office Space).

-David
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Post by Iulianus » Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:08 am

bellum paxque wrote:
I wonder if what is polite in the courtroom would be polite in conversation. In court, of course, a high degree of formality is essential, but that doesn't mean that you use the same type of constructions as you do in polite conversation. For instance, an advocate would never address the jury thus: "If you'd just give me the verdict I'm looking for, that would be great."

Yet that's the wheedling form of request used frequently in English today (cf. Office Space).

-David
You certainly have point there, and I think it would be interesting to compare Cicero's 'polite' comments in his orations to his usage in his letters. I, however, merely meant polite in the case of the prohibition I mentioned - as in the difference between telling the jury 'Don't pay attention to that man!' and ' I suggest you don't pay attention to that man.'
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Post by bellum paxque » Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:24 am

I think it would be interesting to compare Cicero's 'polite' comments in his orations to his usage in his letters.
Hm...courtesy in Roman literature. This sounds like a possible thesis! I wonder if much has been done on this?

-David
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Post by wetherby » Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:52 pm

Even the most eloquent Cicero would himself neither shun the formal nor epistolic use of si vis "please, lit. if thou wilt" which can be more frequently cited in that virtuoso playwright, Plautus the grand master of Roman comedy, who also prefers the condensed, palindrome sis < si + vis for metrical scansion or vulgar effect.
Last edited by wetherby on Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by bellum paxque » Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:04 pm

AH! Wetherby, I was really baffled by that use of SIS! Thank you sincerely for clearing that up for me.

Gratefully

David
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