...in saecula saeculorum?

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Spyus Carus
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...in saecula saeculorum?

Post by Spyus Carus »

Being a new Latin student (and not a Roman Catholic) I found myself attending a Beethoven Mass in C at the local parsih Church this past Sunday. Among the Latin included in the handout was this bit of scripture:

Dignus est Agnus qui occisus est, accípere virtutem, et divinitatem et sapientiam, et fortitudinen, et honorem. Ipsi gloria et imperiun in saecula saeculorum. (Ps. 71: 1)

This all seemed straight forward until I hit "in saecula saeculorum", which was translated as "forever and ever."

I was not sure what the literal meaning was...but guessed from the forms saecula and saeculorum that is a second declension neuter noun.

Saeculorum is obviously a genative plural, am I correct in thinking "in saecula" makes "saecula" the object of the preposition "in", therefore, accusitive plural?

Anyway, that's as far as I got in Church. Today, checking dictionaries I'm finding definitions like: "ages", "generations", "long periods", etc.

So I guess I'm trying to understand the logic of the construction.

The "time" in the definitions I've seen does not seem "infinite"...but does "for (or is it through?) ages of ages" figuratively imply eternity?

And is there a better literal translation?

Thanks for any help. My Latin skills are very newly acquired and are still quite weak.

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Post by amans »

Spyus Carus wrote:Dignus est Agnus qui occisus est, accípere virtutem, et divinitatem et sapientiam, et fortitudinen, et honorem. Ipsi gloria et imperiun in saecula saeculorum. (Ps. 71: 1)
A few typos: it's fortitudinem and imperium.
This all seemed straight forward until I hit "in saecula saeculorum", which was translated as "forever and ever."

I was not sure what the literal meaning was...but guessed from the forms saecula and saeculorum that is a second declension neuter noun.

Saeculorum is obviously a genative plural, am I correct in thinking "in saecula" makes "saecula" the object of the preposition "in", therefore, accusitive plural?
Yes, you are correct.
Anyway, that's as far as I got in Church. Today, checking dictionaries I'm finding definitions like: "ages", "generations", "long periods", etc.

So I guess I'm trying to understand the logic of the construction.

The "time" in the definitions I've seen does not seem "infinite"...but does "for (or is it through?) ages of ages" figuratively imply eternity?

And is there a better literal translation?
I think your translation is excellent. You could also translate saecula saeculorum as "centuries of centuries" - see II b at: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... 3D%2342211 (cf. French - siècle).

Insofar as a century can be considered a number (100), a hundred centuries is 10000 years, and hundreds of centuries even more. So obviously, an eternity is meant.
Thanks for any help. My Latin skills are very newly acquired and are still quite weak.
You're doing well :D

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Post by Lucus Eques »

For a beginner, I highly recommend Lingua Latina:

http://www.lingua-latina.dk/

Bonam fortunam. :-)
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Re: ...in saecula saeculorum?

Post by Skylax »

Spyus Carus wrote: The "time" in the definitions I've seen does not seem "infinite"...but does "for (or is it through?) ages of ages" figuratively imply eternity?
I think this phrase originates in fact from Hebrew or another Eastern language. This was a way to express a superlative ("the most..., the biggest...")

n Flavius Iosephus, a Jewish writer writing in Greek, the Persian emperor is called "King of Kings", like the Lamb (Jesus) in Revelation 17:13 ("King of Kings and Lord of Lords"). "King of Kings" was also the King of Ethiopia. Obviously, it means something like "the mightiest king". You find also in the Bible vanitas vanitatum "vanity of vanities", meaning "absolute vanity".

Vale

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Re: ...in saecula saeculorum?

Post by amans »

Skylax wrote:You find also in the Bible vanitas vanitatum "vanity of vanities", meaning "absolute vanity".
Oh yes, the Bible: liber librorum, some would say . . . I have seen these genitives characterized as 'elative' somewhere. Not sure what that means, though.

ualete

Spyus Carus
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Post by Spyus Carus »

Thanks for the responses.

I was about to ask if the construction was typical of Latin, or a vestige of Hebrew (or a Greek translation of Hebrew)? Or perhaps both?

After all, even "centuries of centuries" remains a "finite" period of time vs "forever and ever."

And I'm assuming all agree "eternity" is what is being suggested?
Last edited by Spyus Carus on Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Spyus Carus »

Lucus Eques wrote:For a beginner, I highly recommend Lingua Latina:

http://www.lingua-latina.dk/

Bonam fortunam. :-)
Estne Italia in Europa? :wink:

I actually love Lingua Latina, and do my best to read a little from it every day. It keeps up my spirit for learning, and will hopefully make it possible to actually "read" Latin one day.

I must say (don't hate me) I felt I needed a traditional grammar text in addition to Lingua Latina, and am using Wheelock's with Dale Grotes' book and online lectures. And writing out the tables Dowling-style.

But Lingua Latina remains both a sweet reward and a very valuable learning tool.

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Post by Skylax »

About "King of Kings", this title is also found in Persian inscriptions.

About saecula saeculorum, I think that an endless time period might be meant, although "infinity" is no primitive concept.

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Post by Lucus Eques »

Spyus Carus wrote:
Lucus Eques wrote:For a beginner, I highly recommend Lingua Latina:

http://www.lingua-latina.dk/

Bonam fortunam. :-)
Estne Italia in Europa? :wink:
Italia in Europa est! :-D *high fives*
I actually love Lingua Latina, and do my best to read a little from it every day. It keeps up my spirit for learning, and will hopefully make it possible to actually "read" Latin one day.

I must say (don't hate me) I felt I needed a traditional grammar text in addition to Lingua Latina, and am using Wheelock's with Dale Grotes' book and online lectures. And writing out the tables Dowling-style.
lol I don't hate you; I suffered through Wheelock for a period myself, plus a good year of haunting Textkit prepared me for Lingua Latina full out. I still think its essential as core material, but the supplement of grammar in explicit English is very helpful, to be sure. It's the higher levels where the nonsensical grammatical terms only confuse. Drives me nuts. Plus Dowling's method is essential; in fact I nominally espouse it more than any other.

I also recommend two things: reading every chapter outloud, at least once, and rewriting it, reading outloud as you write. That way you immerse your brain in the beautiful Latinity. Worked for me, at least.
But Lingua Latina remains both a sweet reward and a very valuable learning tool.
Consentio. :-)
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Lucus Eques
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Post by Lucus Eques »

I'd like to add that you're clearly doing a lot of Latin at once; complimenta! If you drive yourself that hard into it, you're certain to conquer the thing. Iterum bonam fortunam, amice.[/i]
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Spyus Carus
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Post by Spyus Carus »

Lucus Eques wrote:I also recommend two things: reading every chapter outloud, at least once, and rewriting it, reading outloud as you write. That way you immerse your brain in the beautiful Latinity. Worked for me, at least.
My poor cramped and aching hand, nealy crippled by Dowling, must now copy out Familia Romana? O cruel Fates! :shock: :lol:

Say...my left hand is still functional :?

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Post by Kasper »

Rogandum est quota Lucus Linguam Latinam vendendo accipiat.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”

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benissimus
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Post by benissimus »

Kasper wrote:Rogandum est quota Lucus Linguam Latinam vendendo accipiat.
tu me occidisti!
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

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Post by bellum paxque »

was about to ask if the construction was typical of Latin, or a vestige of Hebrew (or a Greek translation of Hebrew)? Or perhaps both?
It's not typical of Latin, at least not before the translation of the Vulgate. As has been mentioned, saecula saeculorum expresses an idiom characteristic of Hebrew. Many such idioms entered into Latin - corruptions, some might say - because of Jerome's fidelity to the Hebrew text. Similarly with Greek, though many of those changes were evident before - in Plautus and Terence, for instance, which (sometimes) reveal trends in more colloquial Latin. Hence, reading the Vulgate can be vexing for one trained in classical Latin. The consolation? It's a lot easier.

David

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Post by Michaelyus »

Is there a Latin Bible that doesn't have "Hebrewisms" or "Koinisms"?

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Post by Spyus Carus »

First, I must apologize. Rather that re-typing the verse in my original post (being lazy) I googled and did a cut and paste. This resulted in not only spelling errors, but more egregiously in improper citation. The proper verse is Rev 5:12-13.

So any construction issues (at least directly) came from the Greek.

Mea Culpa.

Interestingly, the two “Vulgates” I sourced online greatly expand on the “edited” passage used in the service. Why, I do not know.

Clementine Vulgate

Dignus est Agnus, qui occisus est, accipere virtutem, et divinitatem, et sapientiam, et fortitudinem, et honorem, et gloriam, et benedictionem. 13 Et omnem creaturam, quæ in cælo est, et super terram, et sub terra, et quæ sunt in mari, et quæ in eo : omnes audivi dicentes : Sedenti in throno, et Agno, benedictio et honor, et gloria, et potestas in sæcula sæculorum.

Nova Vulgate

Dignus est Agnus, qui occisus est, accipere virtutem et divitias et sapientiam et fortitudinem et honorem et gloriam et benedictionem”. 13 Et omnem creaturam, quae in caelo est et super terram et sub terra et super mare et quae in eis omnia, audivi dicentes: “Sedenti super thronum et Agno benedictio et honor et gloria et potestas in saecula saeculorum."

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Post by bellum paxque »

Michaelyus wrote:Is there a Latin Bible that doesn't have "Hebrewisms" or "Koinisms"?
The Vulgate has been the Latin translation of the Bible since Jerome completed it in the...4th? 5th? century. It was essentially the only text read, used, and studied in the Middle Ages, since there was a paucity of Greek and Hebrew scholars at the time. If there are any other translations, they have none of the influence or fame of the Vulgate.

However, if anyone does find another complete, reputable translation of the Bible in Latin, I'd love to know about it!

David

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Post by Lucus Eques »

Kasper wrote:Rogandum est quota Lucus Linguam Latinam vendendo accipiat.
Velim! Eum "Lingua Latina" uere credo optimum esse, ac me uoueo nihil a magistro Ørberg accipere, pro dolor.
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Lucus Eques
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Post by Lucus Eques »

Ah, to clarify, I didn't write out the chapters by hand, but instead typed them all up, which has come in very handy when I'm with my computer and need to reference them, but don't have the book with me. Typing is also a very effective means, in my opinion, of memorization, and much easier than writing by hand.
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Flos Carmeli
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Post by Flos Carmeli »

It is traditionally translated in pre-vatican II hand missals: "unto ages of ages." Indeed, it is an idiom, and should not be translated literally because it tends to lose some of its antiquity and beauty during the liturgy if translated exactly literally. It is made to express a meaning, and I would say:

"Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto, sicut erat in principio et nunc et semper et in saecula saeculorum. Amen."

expresses the eternal beauty of this prayer quite well when translated "unto ages of ages."

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Post by Flos Carmeli »

Laudetur Jesus Christus!

There are slightly different versions of the Clementine Vulgate around, but they are hard to find, so it is important to be a faithful Catholic if you want to find them!!! As all humans should be...

If you really want to find some cool Latin, I would suggest buying pre-vatican II Latin Rite Missals, or even a Breviarium Romanum. Such as the Dominican Rite, The Carmelite Rite. But I hope that if you bought these that they would be treated with care because they are the highest form of worship man can have on this earth towards God, the Liturgy of the Holy Catholic Church that is.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

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Post by Deudeditus »

Flos... wouldn't that be a matter of opinion? Would not the highest form of worship be a man (homo) living his life to please his God, rather than mere words?

But, yes, many of the early Catholic rites are beautiful to my ears, at least.

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Post by Brian »

Salvete All

This has been an interesting thread. I wonder if there is enough interest for a Lingua Latina Ecclesiastica forum under the Latin section, similar to the Koine Greek forum within the Greek section?

Valete for now

Brian

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Post by Flos Carmeli »

"Flos... wouldn't that be a matter of opinion? Would not the highest form of worship be a man (homo) living his life to please his God, rather than mere words?"

Not really. And they are not just mere words because they are prayers bound in heaven by the Church He founded (Matt 16:18-19). To please God, is to use the prayers (Liturgy) that He promulgated through His Church for worshipping Him. Liturgy is the highest form of prayer on earth. You are pleasing to God by praying the liturgy He has given us, and that is living His will because that is the form of worship he desires to give us. Sed contra, this does not take away from doing good works or living holiness outside the liturgy, enim, liturgical prayer increases grace in the soul. Nor does it mean that personal mental prayer outside of the liturgy is displeasing to God because your learn how to pray in a way most pleasing to God from experience in the liturgy. Hence, when one's will is properly ordered towards God, they will participate fully in the liturgy and reap all the spiritual fruits therein according to one's mode of reception. If you would like to discuss this more you can e-mail me: mgarstin@gmail.com

Regina Decor Carmeli. Ora pro nobis.

Pax Christi.

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Post by benissimus »

Flos, Deudeditus, let's try to stay on topic please :)
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Post by Deudeditus »

Flos, I didn't know all that, falsus sum.

Sorry Benissime. :( Ignoscas culpas meas, in saeculum saeculorum. :) (assuming you live that long)

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