How do we know?
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How do we know?
Reading Catullus I've been wondering. He has various sexual swear words/insults, which seem to be quite specific. But how on earth do we know what word goes with what act? Has an ancient sex manual survived? Are there drawings with captions somewhere? Or has a scholiast provided a helpful gloss?
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Of course people never stopped speaking latin, the language has never been extinct. So no ancient dictionaries had to be dug up to understand the manuscripts.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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Also, many of the Latin profanities are borrowed from Greek which leads to a very similar question. Kasper is probably correct, though it is certainly not unheard of for a word's meaning to be lost. It is a wonder we know the more specific meanings of Catullus' naughty words, since old dictionaries like to lump them together under the vague category of "unnatural vices". Even if a word's meaning were to be lost, modern methods can sometimes provide clues based on word roots and comparisons to other words in the same language and other languages (I don't know of any examples of a word being recovered in this way). paedicare for example, whether it derives from [size=150]παιδικος[/size] or Latin roots referring to shame (pudor, pudet, etc.), there is little doubt in the former what is going on when you "make someone your boy" or in the latter when you "take away someone's dignity sexually". I really don't know for sure, and sorry for the graphic examples!
Last edited by benissimus on Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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that's a very interesting question, I asked myself this one time.
I still don't know how do we know the precise meanings, but Kasper has a valid answer (I think, I don't know when did people started translating the ancient manuscripts - if it were when Latin was still spoken or not).
benissimus, what is paedet?
and that greek paidikos, is it "boyish, childish" only, without any sexual meaning?
and where did "irrumo" come from?
I still don't know how do we know the precise meanings, but Kasper has a valid answer (I think, I don't know when did people started translating the ancient manuscripts - if it were when Latin was still spoken or not).
benissimus, what is paedet?
and that greek paidikos, is it "boyish, childish" only, without any sexual meaning?
and where did "irrumo" come from?
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sorry, that was a cross between pudet and taedet. I could have sworn I edited that out before...benissimus, what is paedet?
as far as I know, paidikos has so sexual meaning in Greek, but I don't know much about that. maybe pedicare is really from pathicus, but that is just a guess. the meaning of irrumo is quite obvious from its formation: in + ruma (variant of rumen) "into the throat", but verbalized.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Septuaginta, Genenis 26:8benissimus wrote:
as far as I know, paidikos has so sexual meaning in Greek,
"paraku/yas de\ Abimelec o( basileu\s Gerarwn dia\ th~s quri/dos ei)~den to\n Isaak pai/zonta meta\ Rebekka th~s gunaikos\s au)tou~."
Paizonta is certainly held to have a sexual meaning here, as Abimelec protests that Isaak has told them Rebekka is his sister, and they have all been "paizonta-ing" with Rebekka.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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A very good guess, in my humble opinion.benissimus wrote:maybe pedicare is really from pathicus, but that is just a guess.
whitaker's WORDS lists irrumo, irrimo and inrumo - the latter propably is earlier. But it doesn't list anything like "rumen" . I've found a few websites suggesting that "rumo" comes from something like "ruma" which would be "teat", and the whole word would mean "offer the teat". you can follow here (click) for the links I found.benissimus wrote:the meaning of irrumo is quite obvious from its formation: in + ruma (variant of rumen) "into the throat", but verbalized.
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The LSJ http://perseus.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi- ... 3D%2376679 gives play like a child as the basic meaning of παιζομαι with 'play amorously' as a subsidiary meaning. Your Genesis citation is one of the references they give. It seems to be a lot less specific than paedicare, but then it could be that the LSJ is just being coy. I don't know.
The Perseus L&S has rumen http://perseus.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi- ... 3D%2341990 and glosses it as throat, gullet.
The Perseus L&S has rumen http://perseus.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi- ... 3D%2341990 and glosses it as throat, gullet.
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[HBXDK] =Ioannes wrote:condomum, condomi N N [HBXDK] Modern lesserbenissimus wrote:"condomum" is not a Latin word.Ioannes wrote:this might be a silly digression, but how old is the latin word "condomum"?
condom;
source: Whitaker's WORDS list
H -- modern -- Coined recently, words for new things (19-20 [centuries])
(SOURCE=K) is especially noteworthy in that it is of modern, 20th century Latin and its meanings should probably not be applied to earlier texts.
source: Whitaker's WORDS wordsdoc.htm
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My new dictionary does have the word "ruma, rumae" or "rumen, ruminis" (it really lists it like that - with the "or" and the "rumen" alternative) and then it says that it means both throat and teat.bingley wrote:The Perseus L&S has rumen http://perseus.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi- ... 3D%2341990 and glosses it as throat, gullet.
I love this new dict, it marks all vowels' duration.