Catullus II

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Amy
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Catullus II

Post by Amy » Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:30 pm

I'm stuck on a part; does anyone know the role of carum nescio quid, and what the construction is following credo? Can't be indirect statement or can it! thanks again

cum desiderio meo nitenti
carum nescio quid lubet iocari,
credo ut, cum gravis aquiescet ardor,
sit solaciolum sui doloris,
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benissimus
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Re: Catullus II

Post by benissimus » Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:23 am

Amy wrote:I'm stuck on a part; does anyone know the role of carum nescio quid, and what the construction is following credo? Can't be indirect statement or can it! thanks again

cum desiderio meo nitenti
carum nescio quid lubet iocari,
credo ut, cum gravis aquiescet ardor,
sit solaciolum sui doloris,
The second two sentences seem to be taken in adapted form from Catullus II. carum interestingly agrees with quid, I don't think any translation will do that justice (carum quid registers to me as meaning "what the hell")

credo is being followed by an ut clause, I suppose closest to a result clause. The result clause is interrupted by a temporal clause with cum.

result clause: ut...sit solaciolum sui doloris
temporal: cum gravis acquiescet ardor
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

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Post by Ulpianus » Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:12 pm

I believe the MS text is corrupt and is generally corrected, including the reversal of lines 7 and 8 which you have here.* The corruption continues thereafter, with what is generally thought to be a gap in the manuscript after 8 and before 9. Other texts do not reverse the lines, but most make other corrections. Fordyce says the difficulties have not been satisfactorily resolved. So I think we are allowed to be nonplussed.

Even as corrected it remains I think something of a puzzle. I understand that the construction after credo is sometimes taken to be optative -- a wish: "I think she hopes that when the oppressive passion subsides there might be a some sort of minor comfort for her pain". The general sense seems clear enough, but precise translation may be impossible; at any rate it is beyond me; I find the dangling credo slightly uncouth.

FWIW, I agree with B on carum quid nescio, though I think I'd be less emphatic, it's not much more than "something or other" ...

* The MS V (as reconstructed; it is now lost) read karum nescio quid libet iocari / et solaciolum sui doloris / credo ut cum gravis acquiescat ardor. V was itself a far from perfect manuscript.

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Re: Catullus II

Post by Democritus » Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:43 am

Amy wrote:I'm stuck on a part; does anyone know the role of carum nescio quid, and what the construction is following credo? Can't be indirect statement or can it! thanks again
Nescio quid means "something or other," somewhat similar to aliquid. Carum modifies this, so carum nescio quid is similar to aliquid carum. I think this is the object of iocare.

Are you taking Catullus in school, BTW? I had this subject in school, long ago. I remember this poem. :)

Amy
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Post by Amy » Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:08 pm

Ulpanius how interesting/predictable that there is that dispute over such a classic poem. "thank you I understand" and it is really wonderful to be able to actually read some of Catullus, and to even be asking this! I came by the road of Jenney sentences which without help/inspiration from this website would have been much more painful than it was, umm so an awkward heartfelt thank you to jeff, all the moderators and textkit as a whole for the latin/greek places you have brought so many people to. Democritus nope, we are reading adapted Phaedras (!?). Gone are the days I guess. :(
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Post by MyIlium » Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:02 am

I'm insanely jealous of you people who can take Latin in school. o_O

By the way, does your teacher actually make you guys translate the dirty Catullus passages? Because that would be funny. :twisted:
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