Meat is Murder translation please?

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Ticheese
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Meat is Murder translation please?

Post by Ticheese » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:15 pm

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Last edited by Ticheese on Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dacicus
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Post by Dacicus » Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:33 pm

Caro caedes est.

MickeyV
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Post by MickeyV » Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:19 pm

One may even omit the copula "est", to attain that charming compactness characteristic of Latin. :D

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classicalclarinet
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Post by classicalclarinet » Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:00 pm

I think there might be more of an 'oomph' with 'est.'

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Post by MickeyV » Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:18 pm

I think not! :cry: Yet, whether or not the presence of the copula is desirable with a view to apportioning that "oomph" to the little sentence, we may leave to the judgement of the topicstarter. I didn't intend to prejudice on the aesthetic merits of omitting the copula, but merely sought to point out that, if one would consider the omission of the copula more attractive, the rules of grammar would not impede this desire. :)

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Thank you all, but.....

Post by Ticheese » Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:35 pm

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Last edited by Ticheese on Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dacicus
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Post by Dacicus » Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:45 pm

My dictionary says that homicidium means "homicide" and "manslaughter" in addition to "murder." I would personally not use that word because it would seem to imply cannibalism.

My dictionary also says that interfectio means just "killing." I think you want it to seem more evil than that, if that's a good way to put it.

Of course, I could be totally incorrect on both counts. Maybe my dictionary isn't the best one.

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Post by amans » Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:59 pm

Which one do you use, Dacice? If I had a a few hundred $$ to spare, I think I'd go for Glare's...
Dacicus wrote:My dictionary says that homicidium means "homicide" and "manslaughter" in addition to "murder." I would personally not use that word because it would seem to imply cannibalism.

My dictionary also says that interfectio means just "killing." I think you want it to seem more evil than that, if that's a good way to put it.

Of course, I could be totally incorrect on both counts. Maybe my dictionary isn't the best one.

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benissimus
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Re: Thank you all, but.....

Post by benissimus » Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:40 am

Well, this is an interesting discussion. As Dacicus wisely pointed out, "homicide" specifically refers to the killing of a man, as opposed to an animal. Therefore any phrase with the Latin term homicidium does not fit your intended meaning. Yet these may be salvaged by replacing the word with a synonym for murder.

Fortunately, Latin has an abundance of words for murder! caedes is probably the most emphatic choice, meaning "carnage, slaughter, massacre, brutality", even used sometimes of animals. nex is "violent death, murder". occisio also means "slaughter/massacre", literally "a cutting down". homicidium literally means "killing of a man" homo "man" + -cidium (caedere) "killing". interfectio is pretty weak, "a putting of an end to someone/something's life", but much more common as a verb (interficere) than a noun. clades and strages also mean "slaughter, carnage, etc.". So basically, your realistic choices for murder are:

caedes, nex, strages, clades and occisio; I think caedes seems most prudent.
Ticheese wrote:I have also heard from other, possibly less reliable sources:

damma abunde homicidium
"deer/venison in abundance is man-killing" - sort of a silly thing to say
CARO INTERFECTIO EST
"meat is a killing" - pretty much the same thing as caro caedes est, but with a less probable choice of words.
Carnificium est Homicidium
"murder is the trade of executioners" (roughly) - I think the person meant to use lanius "butcher" rather than carnifex "executioner" (literally "meat-maker", but not used in that sense). Replacing homicidium with a more appropriate word for animal killing, this could definitely be a phrase to consider.
e.g. lani(i) (ars) est caedes "brutality is a butcher's trade"
or probably better with a verb: lani(i) (ars) est caedere/necare "a butcher's trade is to kill".
Are any of these correct? If so, which do I use? I like 'caro cadaes est' it's nice and short and much less painful as a tattoo!! ;-)
caro caedes est is perfectly fine grammatically, though the idea is a bit foreign sounding and the idea abstract. Meat itself is not murder, the act of getting the meat is what is being argued about, so it is a bit illogical without an understanding of modern word usage. The phrase lani est caedere/necare circumvents this ambiguity entirely, so it may appeal to you in that regard.
There seems to be some contention as to whether the word murder can apply to animals, or just to humans. Does this make any difference? I really must get it right!
"murder" can apply to humans or animals, but "homicide' and its Latin counterpart homicidium apply only to humans.
Last edited by benissimus on Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Thank you all, but.....

Post by Democritus » Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:29 am

benissimus wrote:Fortunately, Latin has an abundance of words for murder! caedes is probably the most emphatic choice, meaning "carnage, slaughter, massacre, brutality", even used sometimes of animals.
Which one was used in law courts? If you killed a person, and later were tried and convicted under the law, which crime were you guilty of?

It seems to me the criminal act of killing is the most relevant. All of these below miss the point just slightly:

meat is slaughter
meat is butchery
meat is killing
meat is an execution
meat is a slaying
meat is brutal(ity)

The fact that meat involves slaughter is not news. "Meat is murder" asserts that meat is tantamount to an unlawful or unethical killing.

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Post by Dacicus » Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:31 am

Which one do you use, Dacice? If I had a a few hundred $$ to spare, I think I'd go for Glare's...
I have The New College Latin & English Dictionary, published by Bantam Books. Saying that maybe it's not the best was a major understatement. I probably won't get a better one anytime soon, since I'm not a Classics major or anything like that.

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Re: Thank you all, but.....

Post by benissimus » Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:06 am

Democritus wrote:
benissimus wrote:Fortunately, Latin has an abundance of words for murder! caedes is probably the most emphatic choice, meaning "carnage, slaughter, massacre, brutality", even used sometimes of animals.
Which one was used in law courts? If you killed a person, and later were tried and convicted under the law, which crime were you guilty of?

It seems to me the criminal act of killing is the most relevant. All of these below miss the point just slightly:

meat is slaughter
meat is butchery
meat is killing
meat is an execution
meat is a slaying
meat is brutal(ity)

The fact that meat involves slaughter is not news. "Meat is murder" asserts that meat is tantamount to an unlawful or unethical killing.
The problem is that in a court of law it is always homicide to which they refer. Does necare fit your criteria? There is also the adjective internecinus, e.g. interneciva est caro (edenda) "meat is murderous (to eat)".
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

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Thanks everyone, but...

Post by Ticheese » Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:30 am

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Last edited by Ticheese on Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thanks everyone, but...

Post by benissimus » Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:47 am

Ticheese wrote:Hi again,

Having looked at several sources, I cannot find a translation of 'caro'. I know it's the 'meat' part of the phrase, but what is its literal translation? I'm assuming it's where we get our word 'carrion' from, but if this is the case, it's not really edible meat is it? Is there a generic term for meat that is edible by humans or is 'caro' it?

Many thanks again for all of your help people!
caro really is literally "meat" or "flesh", see for yourself if you like: Lewis & Short Latin Dictionary. You wouldn't recognize it in the form caro, but most of its other forms begin in carn-, hence "carnivore", "carnage", and a little more remotely, "carnival".
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

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Post by Fredericus » Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:55 pm

Are you planning to sell Meat Is Murder T-shirts at the Colossium? Maybe you could get the gladiators to wear them! (Well, after we've perfected that time machine thingy.)

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