re: can't we do something else? elegiacs.

This board is a composition workshop, like a writers' workshop: post your work with questions about style or vocabulary, comment on other people's work, post composition challenges on some topic or form, or just dazzle us with your inventive use of galliambics.
whiteoctave
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Post by whiteoctave »

as i mentioned in brackets earlier on, prodelided forms of sum, especially est are tolerated at the close of the pentameter, for they form the latter syllable when prodelided with the preceeding disyllable.

~D

Where are the efforts of, say, Benissimus, Annis, Jeff, Skylax, Mariek, Paul, Eureka, Chad, Episcopus etc?

come on...

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Post by Amy »

The inevitable vocab question.
To say "Midwest" as in the US, "medias occasus"? Or would that be referring to Gaul, Germany, etc.?

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Post by whiteoctave »

it may well be best to use the neo-latin America (which has a long 'i'). medias occasus would not really make much geographical sense to a Roman.

(pent.) tu 'media', Ami, uti / non 'America' potes?

with Ami being a vocative scanning as a spondee (with rather unfriendly elision of a long 'i'). the phrase need not be in the ablative, thankfully.

~D

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Post by annis »

whiteoctave wrote:Where are the efforts of, say, Benissimus, Annis, Jeff, Skylax, Mariek, Paul, Eureka, Chad, Episcopus etc?

come on...
[size=134]ἡμᾶς βουλόμενος σπεύδειν ποίημ’ ἐξαιτεῖς·    μὴ μούσαις ἐνοχλεῖ μὴ νέμεσις δικάσῃ[/size].
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Post by Turpissimus »

Hmmmm. This couplet reflects on my frustration at finding a theme:

Insipientia est grave quam stulte toleramus.
Complet mentem sed pagina est vacua.

How about that? I think it would take a man of exeptional modesty not to feel proud at having produced that on a first attempt. And I am certainly not a man of exceptional modesty.

Of course the use of the first person plural was a common way for the poet to talk about himself. For example, Martial VI.60

Laudat, amat, cantat nostros mea Roma libellos,
meque sinus omnes, me manus omnis habet.
etc.

EDIT: for "grave quam" I'll try "gravis et". Always good practice to have one's nouns and adjectives agree.
Last edited by Turpissimus on Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by whiteoctave »

check your pm Turps,

my finest commendations to Will. with little surprise your prosody and syntax is without flaw (the thinking man indeed uses dative with enochlew!). the 5th foot spondee is a licence well used, surely for the gravity of my Draconian demands. finally, the flow of the pent., with such exquisite use of the two hemiepes, is to be envied by all.
i surely would, as you no doubt should, be proud.

~D

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Post by Michaelyus »

Oh no! Me miserum. I am totally ignorant of the rules of Latin poetry, and I am no good at composition of English, let alone Latin. :cry: :oops: :cry: :( :cry:

I think I should use what I compose in my libretto (for a hopefully good Latin opera, which I entitle "Vesuvius et Campania") , but I don't know what to write about. The plot so far: after the celebratory night of Vulcanalia, where the drunk men have beseeched the god's wife Venus for protection, but have turned the chorus into a debauched plea to Venus for love. Deeper into the night, a few Grecians give a small chorus that pleas with the Fates on the night (it is the day of Moira and Nemesea, please pardon my bad transliterated Greek). Another tremor strikes, but the Pompeiians dismiss as another troublesome tremor. The next morning, Eumachia (was she alive in 79AD?) goes out and admires the Bay of Naples. The fisherman from Herculaneum sings a small recitative hoping for a good catch, and a plea to Neptune. Next is a sinfonia called "Ad Forum".

Then I'm stuck. :(

Please help. Please. I beg you. Please. :cry: :oops: :cry:

When does a plosive and a "liquid" equal one consonant?

I admire you, Annis, even though I do not understand it.
Last edited by Michaelyus on Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Turpissimus »

If you're asking about Latin poetry, Mike (I can call you mike, can't I?), the rule seems to be that a word like patria can be scanned either -

pa-tri-a (short short short)

or -

pat-ri-a (long short short, in other words a dactyl)

And check your e-mail Dave. And thanks.

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Post by Michaelyus »

So a vowel ending in a plosive followed by a liquid means the syllable is long or short.

Not keen on "Mike".

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Post by Turpissimus »

So a vowel ending in a plosive followed by a liquid means the syllable is long or short.

Not keen on "Mike".
Yes. A syllable ending in a plosive (that's another term for a stop isn't it?), can be joined to the next liquid, or not, as the meter demands.

And fair enough, no Mike.

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Post by PeterD »

I have a question. Since Latin words are based on accent rather than pitch, would not elegiac couplets (or any Greek poetic meter for that matter) be inappropiate for the Latin language?

I would love to write a couplet, but I do believe that Iambic poetry better suits my temperment if you know what I mean. :wink:


~ἑκηβόλος
Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just. ---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis

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Post by annis »

Turpissimus wrote:I seem to have rather a lot of spondees and not too many dactyls.
A pain I know all too well.
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Post by whiteoctave »

latin words in poetry did not take their main influence from accent but from quantity. accordingly the elegiac metre, inherited and refined from the greek precedent, was perhaps the most common metre employed in latin. its early origins are with the neoterics, it reached its technical peak with ovid, and it has continued, relatively unabated, to this day.
the effect of accent was made secondary, though its consideration is still important. for instance, the consideration of ictus resulted in the general stylistic rule that the hexameter should end with a di- or tri-syllable. since the penultimate syllable of the line must needs be long, the accent always coincided with the arsis of the sixth foot. additionally, whether this last word be of two or three syllables, the accent of the preceeding word will necessarily coincide with the arsis of the fifth foot. the hexameter line will therefore end with a pleasing coincidence of arsis and ictus in the last two feet. such coincidences, however, were avoided generally in the second, third and fourth.

as for iambics, they never really took off in latin. the finest example of their employment (in trimeter at any rate) is perhaps catullus IV.

~D

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Post by annis »

whiteoctave wrote:the 5th foot spondee is a licence well used, surely for the gravity of my Draconian demands.
I could find no way around that in the time I had. I think it would have reduced the effect a bit if I took a week to produce a couplet telling you not to rush us. :)
finally, the flow of the pent., with such exquisite use of the two hemiepes, is to be envied by all.
Getting the second hemiepes right took the most work, but I'm pleased how the line turned out: the echo of MouSaiS in neMeSiS, the double use of the negative, a verb ending each hemiepes. It's too bad Calvert Watkins doesn't visit us.
i surely would, as you no doubt should, be proud.
Thank you for your kind words.
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Post by chad »

just to start up some friendly olympic rivalry, here's an elegaic about the Aussie 4 x 100 freestyle relay swim champions:

[size=150]αὖτις )ολυμπιονῖκαι ὁμοῦ στεφανωθήσονται )αντιπόδων χρυσῷ ἶφι ἀνασσομένων[/size]

once again, the Olympic champions (from the strongly-dominating Antipodes) will be crowned all together with gold.

(nb in ...ni=kai, -ai scans short before a following vowel; upsilon in "gold" scans long naturally)

for more information about grammar, syntax and scansion, United States classicists may visit the following site:

http://www.swimming.org.au/gallery/view ... MeetID=214

:) :)

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Post by Amy »

Uh just putting this here for people's reference, mostly mine. couplet in progress, dave! thanks.
http://suberic.net/~marc/scansion.html

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Post by annis »

Amy wrote:Uh just putting this here for people's reference, mostly mine.
I'm working on a similar reference for Greek, with special attention on places to trip when writing your own. May take a few more days...

EDIT: also, this same person has Do-It-Yourself: How to Write Latin Verse, by H. Schnur, for hexameters. I knew I recognized that URL...
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Post by benissimus »

My first attempt at Latin poetry ever:

quid ridetis acres ingratae mihi Musae
me errantem aspecta quomodo labar ego

The first line is addressed to the muses, the second to the reader. This is perhaps the penalty of completing the pentameter before refining the hexameter. Please tell me if I have erred.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

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Post by annis »

Some guidance for the Hellenists: The Greek Elegiac Couplet: A Writer's Guide. I focus a bit more on some of the considerations particular to Greek.
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Post by annis »

chad wrote:just to start up some friendly olympic rivalry, here's an elegaic about the Aussie 4 x 100 freestyle relay swim champions:

[size=150]αὖτις )ολυμπιονῖκαι ὁμοῦ στεφανωθήσονται )αντιπόδων χρυσῷ ἶφι ἀνασσομένων[/size]
Chad, that's great! Next, you'll need to compose in Dactylo-epitrites, like Pindar used for the victory odes. :)

If you'll forgive me for entering workshopping mode briefly, the location of χρυσῷ is a bit of a shock. I'd be inclined to put that in place of αὖτις (correption preserves the meter). The meter of χρυσῷ is fine, of course, with the hiatus across the caesura, but the sense is hard to connect to the verb in the previous line, for me at least.

Of course I should offer a suggestion for the missing uu-, but nothing comes to mind at the moment.
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Post by Turpissimus »

Benissimus wrote:quid ridetis acres ingratae mihi Musae
me errantem aspecta quomodo labar ego
Not quite as easy as all that!

First of all, no caesura in the hexameter. You need this.
EITHER:
1) After the first sylllable of the third foot (Third strong)
OR
2) After the second of the third foot (assuming it's a dactyl) AND after the first syllables of the second and fourth foot.
At least that's the impression I got from reading WhiteO's piece.
This places considerable limitations on your choice and position of words.

Second, I believe in the second foot of your hexameter the second syllable is short by position since it is a short vowel, followed by a consonant which will, unfortunately attach itself to the beginning of the next syllable, because that syllable begins with a vowel.

So...

The syllable around the first "u" of "annus novus" is long here, but short in "annus octavus".

As for your pentameter (is the translation Watch me erring, just as I slip?)

That seems good to me. You might want to check with WhiteO whether long vowels can elide themselves like that. I've read that diphthongs can, so probably your verse is OK.



And the envy burns me up. You seem to have quite a good grasp of elision, which to me is the real bugbear preventing any kind of progress. I suppose that once I'm used to the idea, it will be quite natural. Until then, however......

You see the difficulty is that dactyls are required in many places, and it is quite impossible of course to find short syllables that do not end in vowels. But if vowels are used, then they tend to be elided with vowels or diphthongs beginning the next word. This is especially difficult with the post caesura part of the pentameter, where I have found it difficult to resist the temptation to use "est", which will naturally elide the vowel of the previous syllable, making it long.

Of course, my grasp of Latin scansion will horrify the more skilled members here, so if I have misled you, I offer you my most heartfelt apologies.

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Post by Turpissimus »

I should add a short note about what caesura actually is.

It's a gap in the words (the latin word actually means cutting)

So for instance with...
progeniem sed enim Troiano a sanguine duci (third strong)

FOOT ONE: pro ge ni
FOOT TWO: em sed e
FOOT THREE: nim Troi
FOOT FOUR: an(o) a
FOOT FIVE: san gui ne
FOOT SIX: du ci

The caesura is between "nim" and "Troi"

And also, to provide you with an example of Third weak (I believe that was what WO called it).....

id metuens veterisque memor Saturnia belli

FOOT ONE: id me tu
FOOT TWO: ens ve te
FOOT THREE: ris que me
FOOT FOUR: mor Sa
FOOT FIVE: tur ni a
FOOT SIX: bel li

Caesura in three places, between "ens" and "ve", between "que" and "me", and finally between "mor" and "Sa"

Dreadful, eh? Imagine Lucretius composing six whole books of verse like that. It fair boggles the mind.

'Till next time then.

EDIT: And thanks to Will for the link.
Last edited by Turpissimus on Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by benissimus »

Turpissimus wrote:
Benissimus wrote:quid ridetis acres ingratae mihi Musae
me errantem aspecta quomodo labar ego
Not quite as easy as all that!

First of all, no caesura in the hexameter. You need this.
EITHER:
1) After the first sylllable of the third foot (Third strong)
OR
2) After the second of the third foot (assuming it's a dactyl) AND after the first syllables of the second and fourth foot.
At least that's the impression I got from reading WhiteO's piece.
This places considerable limitations on your choice and position of words.

Second, I believe in the second foot of your hexameter the second syllable is short by position since it is a short vowel, followed by a consonant which will, unfortunately attach itself to the beginning of the next syllable, because that syllable begins with a vowel.
My scansion is extremely mediocre as well, so I was quite confident there would be mistakes in my first composition.

I intend it to be scanned thus:
quid ri/detis a/cres || ingra/tae mihi / Musae
m[e] erran/t[em] aspec/ta || quomodo / labar e/go


In this case there would be a caesura in the hexameter, but I was going on an assumption that I could choose how to break up acres, similarly to something like pa-tris or pat-ris. Do you suppose this works or am I still in error? Dave pointed out some previous errors, but he has not yet commented on this version.
As for your pentameter (is the translation Watch me erring, just as I slip?)
Yes, that is what I mean, or "Watch me erring, (watch) how I slip" - same difference.
You might want to check with WhiteO whether long vowels can elide themselves like that. I've read that diphthongs can, so probably your verse is OK.
I hope so, or perhaps it can be short (though I doubt it).
And the envy burns me up. You seem to have quite a good grasp of elision, which to me is the real bugbear preventing any kind of progress. I suppose that once I'm used to the idea, it will be quite natural. Until then, however......
I spent a good amount of my day reading through the prosody section of A&G yesterday, although most of the time spent went into rearranging and reselecting words. A&G says that lines with lots of elisions are seen as ugly, which may help to emphasize the idea of going astray in my pentameter (though I shouldn't pretend to know what I am talking about ;) ).
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

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Post by Turpissimus »

quid ri/detis a/cres || ingra/tae mihi / Musae
OK, you and I are talking at cross purposes here, but I still think that hexameter is a little bit dodgy.

I believe the second syllable of the third foot here is long. While you can certainly join the g to the next syllable to create "in-gra" I still think the "n" will have to stay at the end of the second syllable there.

So either way, your couplet is in trouble....

Look on the bright side, it can't possibly get as bad as mine.

I'm off to read some Propertius now. The muses are not coming to Romford tonight, if indeed they have ever been here.

EDIT: Yes, you can break up acres as you please. I've overlooked that. I was scanning your verse from the back, as is my habit, and assumed you wanted in-gra as two long syllables.
Last edited by Turpissimus on Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Turpissimus »

That link Amy provided really is superb.

Interesting to see that the poets avoided certain words. For arbor for instance they used arbusta (which is incidently, the spanish word for bush, and the name of one of George W's oil companies).

Also the article notes the problems with finding short syllables. Once you include them into verse they tend, immediately, to be elided. I think we've all noticed that.

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Post by chad »

Will wrote:
If you'll forgive me for entering workshopping mode briefly, the location of xrusw=| is a bit of a shock. I'd be inclined to put that in place of au)=tij (correption preserves the meter). The meter of xrusw=| is fine, of course, with the hiatus across the caesura, but the sense is hard to connect to the verb in the previous line, for me at least.
Thanks for your help Will: Dave mentioned the same thing. I think this might be a better 2nd line:

[size=150]αὖτις )ολυμπιονῖκαι ὁμοῦ στεφανωθήσονται οἴκαδε δ’ ἴξονται χρυσῷ ἐς )αντιπόδας[/size]

once again, the Olympic champions will be crowned,
and will come home to the Antipodes with gold.


it gets rid of the hiatus at the caesura, and it no longer resurrects digamma at a)nassome/nwn, 2 rules in your (once again excellent) .pdf on writing elegaic couplets, as linked above.

I don't know how to get rid of the hiatus at the fem caesura in the first line though, without throwing it to the end of the line and re-writing the line: do you think I should do that as well? Thanks, Chad. :)

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Post by benissimus »

I believe this will work:
quid ridetis acres || hostes mihi Musae
me errantem aspecta || quomodo labar ego
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

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Post by Turpissimus »

Excuse my ignorance.

Is hostis an adjective?

(I know I should really get a better dictionary, but they are pricey.)

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Post by benissimus »

I have swapped adjective for appositive noun, "why do you laugh, my bitter enemies, the muses". I think this is within acceptable limits...
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

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Post by annis »

chad wrote:it gets rid of the hiatus at the caesura, and it no longer resurrects digamma at a)nassome/nwn, 2 rules in your (once again excellent) .pdf on writing elegaic couplets, as linked above.
I have pondered. I have browsed parts of the Greek Anthology.

I have consulted the Holy Books, namely M.L. West's Greek Metre.

Early elegiasts do tolerate hiatus across the caesura. They also seem perfectly happy to resurrect digamma. Due to private reading I've been focusing a lot on Imperial poets recently, and I've skewed my advice to their much stricter practice. I'll be updating the Guide soon to make that clear.
I don't know how to get rid of the hiatus at the fem caesura in the first line though, without throwing it to the end of the line and re-writing the line: do you think I should do that as well?
Whoo, boy. Now we're playing with deep mojo. I could find no direct comment in His Metrical Holiness' works about correption at the caesura. I did, however, find this line in Homer after a few minutes:

οὐκ ἔθελον δέξασθαι, ἐπεὶ πολὺ βούλομαι αὐτήν A.112

So it appears Homer at least can do this. In general the Hexameter is afforded more freedoms in stichic verse, and is more regulated in elegiacs. But your hexameter is probably fine.
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Post by Episcopus »

whiteoctave wrote:ok.

(hex.) dulcia permultos facturos carmina spero.
Did you compose that? It's nice I like that.

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Post by whiteoctave »

re: episc.
yeah, i did, though i am not fond of its being so diaeretic; nonetheless, i just thought more weight would be added to my request if were in verse itself. speaking of which, have you yet succombed to the sweet siren of Elegia and her elder sister Calypso?


re: chad
αὖτις )ολυμπιονῖκαι ὁμοῦ στεφανωθήσονται οἴκαδε δ’ ἴξονται χρυσῷ ἐς )αντιπόδας

ah, ever better. your skilled use of polysyllables is most splendid. as regards correption over the 3rd wk caes., i have only witnessed it at sense pauses (as for instance in W's example). it would, i think, be skewed logic, however, to allow this to take away from the lines' art.
the pent. is better still, wherein you choose to exercise the power of the Correptive hand once more. thankyou for reminding me, via the latter hemiepes, that the first syllable of chrusos is long, a fact which i have recently overlooked. perhaps the delta introduced causa metri in the first foot may be better replaced by g'?
i like.


re: beni

quid ridetis acres || hostes mihi Musae
me errantem aspecta || quomodo labar ego

the flow of the sense is nice here, combined with a fine poetic sentiment. there is, however, a rather alarming issue at hand. the situation seems rather reminiscent of Naso's complaint at Amores.I.2, that ol' Cupid has stolen a foot, for is not your hexameter only so by name? often when scribbling out a line, my positioning gets thrown by the caesura and i occasionally forget to compose a fourth foot; it looks as though a similar beast has reared its head with you. such a situation is easily healed with the insertion of misero or some such adj. before mihi. perhaps such triple alliteration may add to (the surely commendable) employment of double elision in the pentameter. the latter is, ut opinor, a nice touch. indeed, it reminds me of cat.73.6, the elegiac pentameter with the most elision from the classical period:

quam modo qui me unum atque unicum amicum habuit.

West (David, i hasten to add, not Martin) has asserted that this line shows Catullus' deep emotion. more eminent names, i should think, have dismissed this line as rather crap composition. nonetheless, catullus is not to be taken as a model, for he really only nursed Elegia as a child.

perhaps here may be an opportune time to iterate my couplet entitled
-elegeion elisionis-

inconcinnum incompositumque inceptum Elegiae ora /
usque eludereque elidereque immodice est.

the couplet is in metre with elision between every word, and, by the glorious magic of synaephea, elision between the two lines.


i hope everyone has enjoyed their metrical excursus thus far, and i look forward to seeing further efforts from all, i.e. additional verses by the erudite fellows involved thus far and the diligent still coming round to post.

~D

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Post by annis »

benissimus wrote:quid ridetis acres ingratae mihi Musae
:shock:

μουσάων ἀρχώμεθ’   )ολύμπια δώματ’ ἐχουσῶν,     αἵ ποθ’   (ομήρῳ ἔδον μῦθον ἄεισαι ἀεί, (ησίοδόν τ’ ἐνέπνευσαν· ὑβριστοτέρην στίχ’ ἀοιδῆς    συγγνῶτε στεφάνῳ, τέκνα διὸς μεγάλου· μὴ ποιεῖν ἐλεγεῖά τέ μοι δότε ῥήμα τε φαῦλα·    τέκνα μνημοσύνης, τοιάδ’ ἀλάλκετέ μοι.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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benissimus
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Post by benissimus »

whiteoctave wrote:re: beni

quid ridetis acres || hostes mihi Musae
me errantem aspecta || quomodo labar ego

the flow of the sense is nice here, combined with a fine poetic sentiment. there is, however, a rather alarming issue at hand. the situation seems rather reminiscent of Naso's complaint at Amores.I.2, that ol' Cupid has stolen a foot, for is not your hexameter only so by name?
Ay, Cupid has just made my list, right under the Muses and of course Venus (whose name must come first). Actually, it was I who stole my own foot whilst trying too quickly to appease Turpissimum cui nulla culpa est. Misero was not having it, but I think this will make it complete:

quid ridetis acres hostiles o mihi musae
me errantem aspecta quomodo labar ego


to be read as:
quid ri/detis ac/res || hos/tiles / o mihi / musae
m[e] errant[em] aspecta || quomodo / labar e/go

I finished the prosody section of A&G yesterday (I was on a long flight), so I think I have a pretty good grasp of the hex-/pentameter. I am disappointed that my verbs do not agree in number, but I may yet find a way around that. By sheer luck my caesurae show a sense break (the first verse if regarded as "why do you laugh, bitter ones? O muses you are hostile to me"). Also, apparently it is common for the word preceding the caesura to modify the word at the end of the line, which occurs in my first verse.

Two questions if you don't mind concerning verse in general:
1. when is hiatus permitted or preferred? (whenever the poet wants it I hope!)
2. When two vowels are elided, and the first one is long as uni erit, does the elided syllable become long?
3. Bonus Question: scito + indirect discourse = future infinitive or present infinitive? I should think present (same time infinitive) but I am tragically separated from my OLD for the week.
perhaps here may be an opportune time to iterate my couplet entitled
-elegeion elisionis-

inconcinnum incompositumque inceptum Elegiae ora /
usque eludereque elidereque immodice est.

the couplet is in metre with elision between every word, and, by the glorious magic of synaephea, elision between the two lines.
Ah, I remember you posting this, but I was far too ignorant to appreciate it at the time. Well done!
Mousa/wn a)rxw/meq' )Olu/mpia dw/mat' e)xousw=n,
ai(/ poq' (Omh/rw| e)/don mu=qon a)/eisai a)ei/,
(Hsi/odo/n t' e)ne/pneusan: u(bristote/rhn sti/x' a)oidh=j
suggnw=te Stefa/nw|, te/kna Dio\j mega/lou:
mh\ poiei=n e)legei=a/ te/ moi do/te r(h/ma te fau=la:
te/kna Mnhmosu/nhj, toia/d' a)la/lkete/ moi.
I wish to know what that says, as it seems to concern me!

i hope everyone has enjoyed their metrical excursus thus far, and i look forward to seeing further efforts from all, i.e. additional verses by the erudite fellows involved thus far and the diligent still coming round to post.
I too encourage others to try - it is very fun... and frustrating. It is sort of like a word puzzle, except that the product is something that you can cherish and present :D
Last edited by benissimus on Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

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Post by whiteoctave »

Marvellous work Will! Once again your combination of erudite dialectal curiosities and poetical imagination has resulted in a sublime elegiac result. Superb.

Yes, Benissime, the couplets do concern you. A rough translation of them might run 'Let us occupy the Olympian palace of the Muses in their willingness, Muses who long ago bestowed Homer with stories to sing for evermore and breathed inspiration upon Hesiod. Grant Stephen, daughters of Great Zeus, a more insulting* line for his poem, and grant too that I do not compose worthless elegiacs with worthless expressions, children of Mnemosyne, but ward off such things from me!'

* I imagine Will has a better translation for this word, as I may well be on the wrong lines. I imagine the missing letter of stich' is a and that it is a cheaky Annisesque formation by analogy from the defective noun *stix, which only occurs in the gen. sing. and nom. & acc. pl. - I think we have addressed this before!

As regards your verses Benissimus, they are ever improving. The change of number is, alas, in need of repair. Perhaps the construction at the start of the pentameter could be altered, and the exclamation en! (scanning long) could begin it? hostiles is ok grammatically, but a molossus (three longs) was generally avoided after the third strong because of its over-ponderous effect. I should imagine misero is ok thus: quid ridetis, acres hostes, misero mihi Musae?

As to your questions:

Hiatus is to be completely avoided for our purposes, except in certain exclamatory uses of O, such as in O utinam, which scans as a dactyl followed by a long and is a common line opener.

In elision, the elided syllable is completely discounted and the scansion is dependent only on the beginning syllable of the following word, thus vidi ego, which is found eleven times in Ovid, scans as a dactlyl. (the shortening of the o in ego is common throughout elegy, as with parenthetic puto and scio.) The elision of long 'i' (and 'a', 'u' and diphthongs) is to be avoided, however, except before 'ego'.

As to scito(te) it typically takes the acc. and fut. infin., though i have seen cases of pf. pass. infin as well - it depends on the sense. scito(te) is incidentally found nowhere in Ovid, though scite exists at Met.15.142 and Trist.4.10.89.

I'm glad you're enjoying versifying.
I have now finished collating the document on Latin elegiac verse, and with the help of Will it should be available shortly.

~D

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Post by annis »

whiteoctave wrote:Yes, Benissime, the couplets do concern you.
They do. :) I found "Benissimus" metrically intractable in Greek (not 100%, but Stephanos solved problems).
A rough translation of them might run 'Let us occupy the Olympian palace of the Muses in their willingness, Muses who long ago bestowed Homer with stories to sing for evermore and breathed inspiration upon Hesiod. Grant Stephen, daughters of Great Zeus, a more insulting* line for his poem, and grant too that I do not compose worthless elegiacs with worthless expressions, children of Mnemosyne, but ward off such things from me!'
This translation is quite polished and liberal rather than literal. The most important point is that I'm using συγγιγνώσκω here in the sense of "forgive," so it should be "Daughters of great Zeus, forgive Stephen (for) his hubristic line of song,"

My goal was a rhapsodic (i.e., Homer reciter style) invocation of the Muses. I've mixed in a few traditional elements:
  • common formulaic epithets appear several times
  • start off with "we start with the deity" - Muses here - and then
  • a relative clause describing past favors, "who granted Homer to sing..."
I just worked in a plea for forgiveness on your behalf. :)

I now think the last line should start off with κοῦραι rather than τέκνα, for variation.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by annis »

whiteoctave wrote:* I imagine Will has a better translation for this word, as I may well be on the wrong lines.
I'm using the comparative as a mild emphatic.
I imagine the missing letter of stich' is a and that it is a cheaky Annisesque formation by analogy from the defective noun *stix, which only occurs in the gen. sing. and nom. & acc. pl. - I think we have addressed this before!
It is a very annoying word. In fact, I find I have the most trouble with words of this pattern: CCvCv... (where v=short vowel, C=consonant). The initial st- forces a heavy syllable right before it, no matter what. :evil:

In any case, the accusative singular στίχα is fortunately attested in L&S this time, unlike my earlier impertinence with the dative plural.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by whiteoctave »

you are, i am embarrassed to say, quite right about the existence of the acc.sg. form. however, if it weren't for the anonymous epigram on Democritus of Abdera and Diodorus Siculus' citation of an epigram (perhaps the same) with it in, it would not exist. but, alas, it does. the form of such words can be difficult, though are often friendly after a third strong caesura. at least you are not putting 'sticha' in latin, wherein no short vowel can precede st-, for the position is altogether avoided!

I suspected a comparison of emphasis, though my differing translation of suggignwskw did not welcome it. It makes the more sense now.

I've emailed you the doc.

~D

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Post by whiteoctave »

Here is the link to my notes on Latin elegiac verse composition, very kindly hosted by will, that is, annis.

http://www.aoidoi.org/articles/ktl/LatinElegiacs.pdf

~D

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Post by Michaelyus »

OK, my Latin prose is already absolutely terrible, so my Latin poetry is hardly better, but here goes... :oops:

Sōr-dĭ-dŭs|hōr-tŭs ĭs|ēt||laū-|rūs tŭ(a) ă-|rēs-cĭt
Ō mī|hōr-tĕ rŏ-|saē||mārcŭĭt|ātquĕ bră-|tŭs

Isn't the cutting in the pentameter called a diæresis? My textbook says so.

Thank you Whiteoctave for the links*, although I did overstep some commands (I couldn't get enough dactyls, but alas, there is no hope for me; no-one shall pardon these errrors...).

I await your criticisms with anticipation, horror, dread, fear and "ready to weep" lacrimal glands.


*(and Annis for the hosting Whiteoctave's wonderful page on composing elegiacs)

:cry: :oops: :cry: :oops: :oops:
Last edited by Michaelyus on Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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