Χριστὸς ἀνέστη?

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Lukas
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Χριστὸς ἀνέστη?

Post by Lukas » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:55 pm

Χαίρετε!

I am writing Χριστὸς ἀνέστη with a grave accent at the end of the noun. Is that correct for two word phrases? Modern Greek uses an acute, but it got rid of the grave and circumflex accents.
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Re: Χριστὸς ἀνέστη?

Post by bedwere » Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:13 pm

Yes.

Ἀληθῶς ἀνέστη.

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Re: Χριστὸς ἀνέστη?

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:18 am

FWIW, that form of the verb ἀνέστη is the intransitive 1st aorist. The transitive 2nd aorist form of the verb is ἀνέστησεν, as for example (ὁ θεός) ἀνέστησεν αὐτὸν (i.e. τὸν Ἰησοῦν) ἐκ νεκρῶν in Acts 13:34.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Χριστὸς ἀνέστη?

Post by Hylander » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:16 am

You have it backwards .ἀνέστη is "second" aorist (intransitive); ἀνέστησεν is "first" aorist (transitive).

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Re: Χριστὸς ἀνέστη?

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:20 pm

Hylander wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:16 am
You have it backwards.
Image

It seems I was attempting an explanation too big for myself.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Χριστὸς ἀνέστη?

Post by Hylander » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:16 am

You got the underlying principle right: transitive vs. intransitive. "First aorist" and "second aorist" are just labels. The "sigmatic" aorists are traditionally denominated "first aorist".

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Re: Χριστὸς ἀνέστη?

Post by Constantinus Philo » Thu May 02, 2019 7:36 pm

And as a rule of thumb sigmatic ao are tr and second ao intr
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Re: Χριστὸς ἀνέστη?

Post by mwh » Thu May 02, 2019 7:50 pm

Not true. Most "second" aorists are transitive.

And Constantin, So far today you have posted at least thirteen posts, and not a single one is helpful or consequential. Might I suggest you post only when you have a thoughtful question to ask or when you have a substantive contribution to make?
There are people here who are happy to help you, if you do not try their patience too much. There are also people here who could easily be led astray by some of your posts.

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Re: Χριστὸς ἀνέστη?

Post by Constantinus Philo » Fri May 03, 2019 12:01 am

Fine
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Re: Χριστὸς ἀνέστη?

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Fri May 03, 2019 12:19 pm

Constantinus Philo wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:36 pm
And as a rule of thumb sigmatic ao are tr and second ao intr
mwh wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:50 pm
Not true. Most "second" aorists are transitive.
Respectfully, actually you are both right. This is an area where our system of grammatical categorisation falls down a little. Terminology sometimes has a double meaning. I'm sure if you pause for a moment you will both realise what I am about to say, but for the record, anyway...

Within the context of a discussion of the grammar of Χριστὸς ἀνέστη expressed in the intransitive second aorist, which I expanded to include the transitive first / sigmatic aorist formulation of the event ἀνέστησεν αὐτὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν, Constantin made a statement that is true of other verbs that have both a transitive first sigmatic aorist and an intransitive second direct-flection or thematic vowel aorist. Constantin's statement is true of φύω and τρέφω. Within the narrow definition, at the level of the accepted (assumed) wisdom of a century ago, what he has said would be thought true. For this limited number of verbs, there is a first aorist tense that is active and a second aorist tense that is intransitive.

As an aside let me say here, being as good a place as any, that φύω is a verb that appears to be under understood. It is both complicated and nuanced. It seems like an person who lives the traditional life of the countryside despite having relocated early on into the city.

In the broader context of Greek grammar there are verbs inherented from from PIE, the roots of which are inherently perfective and they follow form their present and imperfect tenses by the addition of some morphological elements. From memory there are over 20 different ways that Greek modified perfective roots by prefixes, infixes and/or suffixes. The aorist forms of those verbs are called second aorist. The verbal roots that were considered inherently imperfective, and which add a sigma in the aorist to make the stem perfective. These are called first aorist. The form of a single (transitive or intransitive) (aspectually) aorist tense is constructed in different ways for different verbs. In this way, most second aorist (from verbs that follow second as opposed to frst aorist morphological patterns) are transitive, because the verbs are transitive.

In simple terms verbs are classified as being one class or the other, but actually many (hundreds of) verbs have both first and second aorist forms, without having both first and second aorist tenses. Transitivity / insensitivity is not affected by those verbs having both aorist forms. The theta passives that were mentioned earlier also have a role within the development and changes in the verbal system. This later first / sigmatic aorist forms mostly arise in the later period.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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