Is there "An Idiot's Guide to Greek Disputes in Scripture"?

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ἑκηβόλος
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Is there "An Idiot's Guide to Greek Disputes in Scripture"?

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:44 pm

I'm not staking a claim or signalling an intention to compile one, but is there a booklet or website that briefly summarises the way that different doctrinal schools read the Greek of the New Testament as the basis for or in support of their particular claims?

The only example that I remember from my (anti-charismatic) Greek teacher was presented in a very biased manner, but I would like an impartial statement of the positions. The other was about the meaning if a technical word.

Details from such a book might read something like:

• In 1 Corinthians 12:1, περὶ ... τῶν πνευματικῶν, Charismatics and Pentecostals read this a neuter understanding it to be "the spiritual (gifts)", while mainline Christian denominations read it as masculine understanding it to be "the (so called) spiritual (people)".

• In Romans 3:25 such and such school of theology reads ἱλαστήριον as "mercy seat", while such and such school of theology read it as "atoning sacrifice".

Whether it was limited to modern (post-Renaissance) points of contention, or it also covered historical disputes in the earlier periods of the Church before Christian doctrine was more or less codified wouldn't be too much of an issue, I think, because disputes and opinions tend to reoccur.

The exact relationship between arrangement vs. indexing could be by verses indexed to Greek or by Greek indexed to verses, or any other accessible arrangement.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Is there "An Idiot's Guide to Greek Disputes in Scripture"?

Post by jeidsath » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:57 am

I don't think that this thread can possibly go well, but some other board participants are less cynical than me, and would like it back in the Koine forum.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Is there "An Idiot's Guide to Greek Disputes in Scripture"?

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:18 pm

This kind of thing is often discussed in the better exegetical commentaries, which often try to give the history of interpretation on any given passage before offering the author's own assessment. Since 97.6% of exegesis is driven by apologetical considerations, such discussions may or may not be helpful.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

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Re: Is there "An Idiot's Guide to Greek Disputes in Scripture"?

Post by Markos » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:28 pm

Being when it comes to Greek, Scripture and disputes nothing if not an ἰδιώτης, a few which come to mind:

1.
1 Cor. 13:10: ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ τὸ τέλειον, τότε τὸ ἐκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται.
The neuter singular indicates a singular OT/NT cannon (now τὸ Βιβλίον, no longer αἱ γραφαί) which replaces the need for prophecy and tongues.
2.
Mk 1:10: καὶ εὐθέως ἀναβαίνων ἀπὸ τοῦ ὕδατος εἶδε σχιζομένους τοὺς οὐρανοὺς καὶ τὸ Πνεῦμα ὡς περιστερὰν καταβαῖνον ἐπ’ αὐτόν·
ἀπό may suggest Jesus came up away from the bank of the river, whence he may have been sprinkled. ἐκ would have indicated that He came up after having been IN the water, thus endorsing full immersion.
3.
Rev. 3:10: ὅτι ἐτήρησας τὸν λόγον τῆς ὑπομονῆς μου, κἀγώ σε τηρήσω ἐκ τῆς ὥρας τοῦ πειρασμοῦ τῆς μελλούσης ἔρχεσθαι ἐπὶ τῆς οἰκουμένης ὅλης, πειράσαι τοὺς κατοικοῦντας ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς.
ἐκ suggests being pulled out of trials INTO which we already are, pointing to a mid-trib rapture. ἀπό might have indicated rather being pulled out before getting fully into the trials, thus pointing to a pre-trib Rapture.
4
Rom 9:22: εἰ δὲ θέλων ὁ Θεὸς ἐνδείξασθαι τὴν ὀργὴν καὶ γνωρίσαι τὸ δυνατὸν αὐτοῦ ἤνεγκεν ἐν πολλῇ μακροθυμίᾳ σκεύη ὀργῆς κατηρτισμένα εἰς ἀπώλειαν,
καταρτισθέντα (P) would tilt toward Calvin, καταρτισάμενα (M)toward Arminius. God left it M/P to keep the dispute going.

5. κ.τ.λ.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.

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Re: Is there "An Idiot's Guide to Greek Disputes in Scripture"?

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:17 pm

jeidsath wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:57 am
I don't think that this thread can possibly go well, but some other board participants are less cynical than me, and would like it back in the Koine forum.
I agree with Joel. The question itself needs to be questioned. A barely disguised vague grab bag full of dubious assumptions need to be unmasked, one at a time.

Here is a place the specializes in this kind of discussion:
carm biblical languages
https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/theol ... -languages
C. Stirling Bartholomew

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Re: Is there "An Idiot's Guide to Greek Disputes in Scripture"?

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:49 am

C. S. Bartholomew wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:17 pm
The question itself needs to be questioned.
My question is straightforward, needing only a yes / no answer.

The "Idiots Guide to ..." series makes specialist knowledge available to the non-specialist.
C. S. Bartholomew wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:17 pm
A barely disguised vague grab bag full of dubious assumptions need to be unmasked, one at a time.
Having somebody put forward such a provocative description of Christian doctrine was not part of my intention in posting this topic. The key word is "impartial". In making a statement like this, you are possibly provoking those who call that "grab bag of dubious assumptions" something like "the doctrines of faith and life".

In this context, I am not specifically interested in late antique syncretism or the appropriation of various elements of other religious and philosophical systems during the development of Christianity as it developed into its various recognisably orthodox (little "o") forms. I am interested to know if there is a booklet (written in an impartial, non-apologetic, non-dogmatic way) explaining how the Greek has been used by various groups or schools to bolster or validate their positions. There are off the shelf summaries of the various position, but I am unaware of anything that prepares the non-specialist for the inevitable, "the Greek says" appeals to authority of the original languages.

My intention is to democratise knowledge and to disempower the surprise factor that seems to accompany arguments making reference to the Greek. If there is no ready reference that somebody can look at and say, "Oh, he is using the Greek according to the such and such school's way of interpreting, but there are other ways of understanding it too", then it is difficult to make a balanced and critical consideration of the Greek that is presented as evidence for a claim.

I don't think that the claims to a better understanding made by those individuals who have only "a little" Greek warrant mention - stuff like, "in the Greek that is an aorist, and we know that the aorist always means ..." - because it is only by having a better understanding of Greek that those for those for whom their little Greek is a dangerous thing. Guiding those easily confused by their own knowledge requires a different sort of approach than what I am asking.

I am interested in big picture historically attestable ways of interpreting the Greek that have recognisable usage within doctrinal schools.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Is there "An Idiot's Guide to Greek Disputes in Scripture"?

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:53 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:18 pm
This kind of thing is often discussed in the better exegetical commentaries, which often try to give the history of interpretation on any given passage before offering the author's own assessment. Since 97.6% of exegesis is driven by apologetical considerations, such discussions may or may not be helpful.
There is a subtle difference between, "the Greek means something", and making the Greek mean something. There is no substitute for actually putting 10 or more years of study into the language, but for those who can't do that for some reason, a lay guide at the level of an Idiots Guide might be a poor substitute.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Is there "An Idiot's Guide to Greek Disputes in Scripture"?

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:56 am

Markos wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:28 pm
a few which come to mind:
It wasn't my intention to use this forum as a place to list them, but in the apparent absence of such a guide, the things you mention are interesting nevertheless. Your presentation is balanced and non-dogmatic.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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