Psalm 69:2 LXX to Vulgate πρόσχες -> festina

Are you learning Koine Greek, the Greek of the New Testament and most other post-classical Greek texts? Whatever your level, use this forum to discuss all things Koine, Biblical or otherwise, including grammar, textbook talk, difficult passages, and more.
Post Reply
User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 964
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC
Contact:

Psalm 69:2 LXX to Vulgate πρόσχες -> festina

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:14 am

What was Jerome doing in the translation here?
εἰς τὸ σῶσαί με κύριον ὁ θεός εἰς τὴν βοήθειάν μου πρόσχες
Deus in adiutorium meum intende Domine ad adiuvandum me festina;
The Greek "give attention to" is rendered in Latin by "hurry". Is that something required by the Latin language for this phrase to become good Latin?
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
Posts: 3803
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California
Contact:

Re: Psalm 69:2 LXX to Vulgate πρόσχες -> festina

Post by bedwere » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:04 am

No idea. But looking at other versions, the Vetus Italica (before St. Jerome) has only

2 Domine Deus in adjutorium meum intende.

Psalterium Romanum (traditionally attributed to St. Jerome) is the same as the Gallicanum. The Ambrosianum and the Mozarabicum have basically the same text.

User avatar
Barry Hofstetter
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1010
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: Psalm 69:2 LXX to Vulgate πρόσχες -> festina

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:23 am

The critical version of the Vulgate, the Biblia Sacra Vulgata,

Deus in adiutorium meum intende †
※Domine ad adiuvandum me festina:


Weber, R., & Gryson, R. (1969). Biblia Sacra iuxta Vulgatam versionem (5th revised edition, Ps 69:2). Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft.

The notes indicate that the first sentence follows the LXX, and the second sentence was added from the Theodotian version of the Hebrew. The Masoretic text has:

אֱלֹהִ֥ים לְהַצִּילֵ֑נִי יְ֝הוָ֗ה לְעֶזְרָ֥תִי חֽוּשָֽׁה

The ESV renders:

Make haste, O God, to deliver me!
O LORD, make haste to help me!

Supplying the imperative חֽוּשָֽׁה for both clauses (a rather natural reading of the Hebrew).

Explanations of the LXX rendering could range from mistranslation to having a different Vorlage.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 964
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC
Contact:

Re: Psalm 69:2 LXX to Vulgate πρόσχες -> festina

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:16 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:23 am
Explanations of the LXX rendering could range from mistranslation to having a different Vorlage.
I didn't think to refer to the Hebrew. Apparently the same Hebew to Greek translation strategy was employed five times in the Psalms:
  • Psalm 22:19 לְעֶזְרָ֥תִי חֽוּשָׁה, Psalm 21:20 εἰς τὴν ἀντίλημψίν μου πρόσχες
  • Psalm 38:22 ח֥וּשָׁה לְעֶזְרָתִ֑י אֲ֝דֹנָ֗י, Psalm 37:23 πρόσχες εἰς τὴν βοήθειάν μου κύριε
  • Psalm 40:13 יְ֝הוָ֗ה לְעֶזְרָ֥תִי חֽוּשָׁה׃, Psalm 39:14 κύριε εἰς τὸ βοηθῆσαί μοι πρόσχες
  • Psalm 70:1 לְעֶזְרָ֥תִי חֽוּשָֽׁה׃, Psalm 69:2 εἰς τὴν βοήθειάν μου πρόσχες
  • Psalm 71:12 אֱ֝לֹהַ֗י לְעֶזְרָ֥תִי חֽוּשָׁה׃, Psalm 70:12 ὁ θεός μου εἰς τὴν βοήθειάν μου πρόσχες
Does festināre necessarily involves (at least the image of) motion? Anthropomorphic imagery for the divine is suggestive of a meaning, rather than purely descriptive. It seems possible that to the Hebrew to Greek translator of these passages, the idea of speed was in prioritisation. Something like "process my application first", rather than "bring the cavalry at a flat out gallop".

Were the Hebrew to Latin translators bilingual or did they work from word-lists and grammar books (or marry native speakers)?
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 964
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC
Contact:

Re: Psalm 69:2 LXX to Vulgate πρόσχες -> festina

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:03 pm

Because there are two ways to parse this, let me bring this point up too:

It is not plausible that this πρόσχες could be the imperative of προέχω, is it?

ie. "Be excellent (surpass all other means) for my salvation."
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

User avatar
Barry Hofstetter
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1010
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: Psalm 69:2 LXX to Vulgate πρόσχες -> festina

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:03 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:16 am
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:23 am
Explanations of the LXX rendering could range from mistranslation to having a different Vorlage.
I didn't think to refer to the Hebrew. Apparently the same Hebew to Greek translation strategy was employed five times in the Psalms:
  • Psalm 22:19 לְעֶזְרָ֥תִי חֽוּשָׁה, Psalm 21:20 εἰς τὴν ἀντίλημψίν μου πρόσχες
  • Psalm 38:22 ח֥וּשָׁה לְעֶזְרָתִ֑י אֲ֝דֹנָ֗י, Psalm 37:23 πρόσχες εἰς τὴν βοήθειάν μου κύριε
  • Psalm 40:13 יְ֝הוָ֗ה לְעֶזְרָ֥תִי חֽוּשָׁה׃, Psalm 39:14 κύριε εἰς τὸ βοηθῆσαί μοι πρόσχες
  • Psalm 70:1 לְעֶזְרָ֥תִי חֽוּשָֽׁה׃, Psalm 69:2 εἰς τὴν βοήθειάν μου πρόσχες
  • Psalm 71:12 אֱ֝לֹהַ֗י לְעֶזְרָ֥תִי חֽוּשָׁה׃, Psalm 70:12 ὁ θεός μου εἰς τὴν βοήθειάν μου πρόσχες
Does festināre necessarily involves (at least the image of) motion? Anthropomorphic imagery for the divine is suggestive of a meaning, rather than purely descriptive. It seems possible that to the Hebrew to Greek translator of these passages, the idea of speed was in prioritisation. Something like "process my application first", rather than "bring the cavalry at a flat out gallop".

Were the Hebrew to Latin translators bilingual or did they work from word-lists and grammar books (or marry native speakers)?
It's generally agreed that the OL (Old Latin preceding Jerome's revision/translation) translations were done from the LXX. Jerome actually studied Hebrew (he describes this process in his letters). This is a nice summary article:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jerome-x00b0

And this article by Barr is good as well:

https://www.escholar.manchester.ac.uk/a ... CUMENT.PDF

The OLD on festino:

festīnō ~āre, ~āuī, ~ātum intr. (tr.) [cf. Irish brass ‘swift’, Welsh brys ‘haste’]
1 To act hurriedly, make haste; (especially in present participle agreeing with subject of verb).
▶ nulla in re iam te ~are uolo CIC. Fam. 16.4.3; mare sentit amorem ~antis eri HOR. Ep. 1.1.85; qui semper in augenda ~at et obruitur re 1.16.68; LIV. 27.40.9; caue ‥ spem ~ando praecipitare meam OV. Pont. 3.1.140; libellos, qui mihi ‥ quadam ~andi uoluptate fluxerunt STAT. Silv. 1.pr.; quanto quis inlustrior, tanto magis falsi ac ~antes TAC. Ann. 1.7; (with internal accusative) erat in animo nihil ~are CIC. Att. 5.12.1; —seruoli esse duco ~antem currere PL. Poen. 523; haec ~ans scripsi in itinere CIC. Att. 6.4.3; abiit ~ans domum PHAED. 3.19.9; (cf.) remigio ueloque ‥ ~a et fuge PL. As. 157.
b to be fussily active, bustle.
▶ omnes ~ant intus totis aedibus PL. Cas. 763; apud nos eccillam ~at cum sorore uxor tua St. 536; qui unum quid mature transigit, is properat, qui multa simul incipit neque perficit, is ~at CATO orat. 72; alios ~are, lectos sternere, cenam adparare TER. Hau. 125; ~ando, agitando omnia plus timoris quam periculi effecerant SAL. Cat. 42.2.
c (of work) to go swiftly forward, proceed rapidly; (of time) to pass swiftly; (of plants) to be early in budding or maturing.
▶ sponte sua ~at opus SEN. Apoc. 4.1; si ualli ~et opus SIL. 1.244; —ut saeculorum infinita series ‥ sua lege ~et [QUINT.] Decl. 4.13; annis breuibus et ~antibus mensibus APUL. Fl. 9; —primo fauonio cornus (germinat) ‥ ~at et platanus PLIN. Nat. 16.98; 19.7.
2 (tr.) To perform with haste (the verbal idea implied by the object), hurry through, make haste over.
▶ ut ~atum non faciatis iter OV. Pont. 4.5.8; ~ata prior ‥ cura libelli MART. 10.2.1; ~at ‥ uias STAT. Theb. 2.478; ~atis per Gallias dilectibus TAC. Hist. 2.57; cum belli ciuilis praemia ~arentur 3.37; APUL. Met. 4.4.
3 To go or come quickly, hasten, hurry.
▶ quid illic ~et sentio PL. Trin. 615; tres uiae sunt ad Mutinam—quo ~at animus CIC. Phil. 12.22; solent nautae ~are quaestus sui causa Fam. 16.9.4; ~at calidus mulis gerulisque redemptor HOR. Ep. 2.2.72; aqua nubem lapidoso pondere et ~ante perrumpit APUL. Mun. 9; (impersonal passive) ~atum ‥ ad Padum est LIV. 21.47.2; quamquam angusto ~aretur aditu (aluei) [QUINT.] Decl. 13.4; (poet.) ~antia sistens fata STAT. Silv. 3.4.24.
b (tr.) to move quickly.
▶ ~ata ‥ signa mouebat SIL. 11.193; ~atis lictorum manibus in carcerem raptus TAC. Ann. 6.40.
4 To have little time to spare, be in a hurry, be pressed for time.
▶ ~abam eramque occupatior CIC. Att. 10.6.1; plura scripsissem, nisi tui ~arent Fam. 12.22a.4; cum ~antem ac praecurrentem Caesarem speraret libentius etiam crediturum suis promissis B. Alex. 71.1; innuit Latroni ~are Caesarem; finiret iam declamationem SEN. Con. 2.4.13.
b (with infinitive) to be anxious or impatient (to); (also with ut).
▶ perspexisse mihi uidebar, quam ~ares decedere CIC. Fam. 3.6.2; ~auit uterque confligere POL. Fam. 10.33.3; proelium commiserunt ~antes praeripere subsequentibus uictoriae societatem B. Alex. 27.4; dum ‥ arma uiris in arma natis auferre ~ant LIV. 9.9.11; quem equidem cruci adfixum uidere ~o CURT. 6.3.14; ut ~et oratio ab homine fugere PLIN. Nat. 28.87; —~are et urgere, ut prouinciam, ut legiones solus habeat TAC. Ann. 2.70.
c (with ad) to be impatient to reach (a new topic, etc.); (also with ab) to be in a hurry to abandon.
▶ ad singulare ‥ factum ~at oratio CIC. Phil. 1.3; semper ad euentum ~at HOR. Ars 148; legentium plerisque ‥ ~antibus ad haec noua LIV. pr.4; ad Taprobanen insulam ~ante animo PLIN. Nat. 6.79; ~o ad nostros JUV. 10.273; —ab expertis ~ant usibus omnes GRAT. 116.
5 To act promptly, avoid delay, lose no time.
▶ ~a atque, uti coepisti, perge SAL. Jug. 102.9; ~antibus sauiis APUL. Met. 5.7; (impersonal passive) ~andum ‥ in iis (sc. cepis Ascaloniis) est, quoniam maturae celeriter putrescunt PLIN. Nat. 19.103; ~andum ceteris uidebatur antequam cresceret ‥ coniuratio TAC. Hist. 1.33.
b (with infinitive) to lose no time (in), hasten (to); (also with supine or ad).
▶ tu, quaeso, ~a ad nos uenire CIC. Att. 3.26; quae laedunt oculos ~as demere HOR. Ep. 1.2.38; ille ~ans peruenire in urbem VELL. 2.59.5; ~at ‥ decurrere uelox flosculus ‥ uitae JUV. 9.126; di immortales ~auerunt uirtutes tuas ad gubernacula rei publicae ‥ admouere PLIN. Ep. Tra. 10.1.1; —(urnulam) adreptam completum ~at APUL. Met. 6.15; Soc. pr.4; —ipsis ‥ ~antibus ad effectum operis LIV. 6.4.6; ad uinum ~are non oportet CELS. 3.19.3; ipsa ad perniciem Poppaeae ~at TAC. Ann. 11.2; non esse ~andum ad tormenta ULP. dig. 29.5.1.5; (with gerund or gerundive) ~are ad eximendum eum (sc. dentem) ‥ non est necesse CELS. 6.9.5; ~are ad decernendum ULP. dig. 39.2.15.22.
6 (tr.) To perform, make, give, work on, prepare, etc., without delay, hasten to, lose no time in, be quick with.
▶ festiuum ~ant diem ENN. scen. 426; ni id ~aret, in summo periculo ‥ socios fore SAL. Jug. 77.1; soleas ~ate Hist. inc.20; ~are fugam VERG. A. 4.575; poenas ‥ ~at HOR. Ep. 1.2.61; ~ant arua coloni Aetna 264; iam, quas induat ille, ~at uestes OV. Met. 11:575; sera iuuenum uenus ‥ nec uirgines ~antur TAC. Ger. 20.3; quibus proelium et ~ati casus placebant Ann. 6.44.
b to advance in time, hurry on.
▶ ~atos nimium sibi sentit honores LUC. 8.24; celerius occidere ~atam maturitatem QUINT. Inst. 6.pr.10; quod ‥ missione ~ata fauorem militum quaesiuisset TAC. Ann. 1.52; mortem in se ~auit 4.28; PLIN. Pan. 69.5; mors ‥ domini gladiis tam ~ata JUV. 4.96; ~andae necis causa GEL. 17.16.5.


Glare, P. G. W. (Ed.). (2012). Oxford Latin Dictionary (Second Edition, Vol. I & II). Oxford: Oxford University Press.

Yes, it does appear that the LXX translators have a different sense of the Hebrew:

חושׁ, חישׁ: qal: pf. חָשׁ, חַשְׁתִּי; impv. חוּשָׁה: hurry 1 S 20:38; w. le & inf. Hb 1:8.
hif.: pf. הֵחִישׁוּ; impf. וַתַּ֫חַשׁ, יָחִישָׁה, אָחִישָׁה, אֲחִשֶׁנָּה:—1. hurry (intrans.) Ju 20:37;—2. hasten s.thg Is 60:22; look for s.thg in a hurry Ps 55:9;—3. (qal?, oth. II hif.) hurry away, yield Is 28:16.

Holladay, W. L., & Köhler, L. (2000). A concise Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon of the Old Testament (p. 98). Leiden: Brill.

Not totally sure how to explain it.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 964
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC
Contact:

Re: Psalm 69:2 LXX to Vulgate πρόσχες -> festina

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:23 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:03 pm
Yes, it does appear that the LXX translators have a different sense of the Hebrew:
Just when חישׁ is in the collocation לְעֶזְרָ֥תִי חֽוּשָׁה it seems.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
Posts: 3129
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Psalm 69:2 LXX to Vulgate πρόσχες -> festina

Post by jeidsath » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:40 pm

Explanations of the LXX rendering could range from mistranslation to having a different Vorlage.
I don't think that Hekebolos' gloss from προέχω is correct [was he thinking προσέχω?]. I would imagine that this is the meaning that they had in mind:
LSJ προέχω B.II.1 in running, to be the first, have the start, Il.23.325: c. gen., ἡμέρης ὁδῷ π. τῶν Περσέων keep ahead of them by a day's march, Hdt.4.120; προέχων τῶν ἄλλων [ὁ ἵππος] getting before the rest, Id.9.22; τῇ κεφαλῇ π. beat by a head, in racing, X.Cyr.4.3.16: of Time, προεῖχε [ἡ τριήρης] ἡμέρᾳ καὶ νυκτί started first by . . , Th.3.49; π. εἴκοσιν ἔτεσιν Pl.Lg.879c: metaph., have the advantage of, τινὸς τῷ διπλασίῳ Antipho3.3.2.
It's even possible that they only meant "hurry", and that the idea of being first was suppressed. But whether they meant "hurry" or "be first", it seems to be a normal enough translation by LXX standards, without having to invoke misunderstanding by the translators or them having had a different Hebrew text.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

User avatar
Barry Hofstetter
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1010
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: Psalm 69:2 LXX to Vulgate πρόσχες -> festina

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:13 pm

jeidsath wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:40 pm
Explanations of the LXX rendering could range from mistranslation to having a different Vorlage.
I don't think that Hekebolos' gloss from προέχω is correct [was he thinking προσέχω?]. I would imagine that this is the meaning that they had in mind:
LSJ προέχω B.II.1 in running, to be the first, have the start, Il.23.325: c. gen., ἡμέρης ὁδῷ π. τῶν Περσέων keep ahead of them by a day's march, Hdt.4.120; προέχων τῶν ἄλλων [ὁ ἵππος] getting before the rest, Id.9.22; τῇ κεφαλῇ π. beat by a head, in racing, X.Cyr.4.3.16: of Time, προεῖχε [ἡ τριήρης] ἡμέρᾳ καὶ νυκτί started first by . . , Th.3.49; π. εἴκοσιν ἔτεσιν Pl.Lg.879c: metaph., have the advantage of, τινὸς τῷ διπλασίῳ Antipho3.3.2.
It's even possible that they only meant "hurry", and that the idea of being first was suppressed. But whether they meant "hurry" or "be first", it seems to be a normal enough translation by LXX standards, without having to invoke misunderstanding by the translators or them having had a different Hebrew text.
Agreed. I made that suggestion before reviewing how it was translated elsewhere.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

User avatar
Barry Hofstetter
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1010
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: Psalm 69:2 LXX to Vulgate πρόσχες -> festina

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:57 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:03 pm
Because there are two ways to parse this, let me bring this point up too:

It is not plausible that this πρόσχες could be the imperative of προέχω, is it?

ie. "Be excellent (surpass all other means) for my salvation."
Except that Jerome tends to translate with intendere, a good translation of προσέχω, not so much for προέχω.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 964
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC
Contact:

Re: Psalm 69:2 LXX to Vulgate πρόσχες -> festina

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:35 pm

I like the use use to which Hebrew has been put in this thread.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 964
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC
Contact:

Re: Psalm 69:2 LXX to Vulgate πρόσχες -> festina

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:14 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:57 pm
ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:03 pm
It is not plausible that this πρόσχες could be the imperative of προέχω, is it?
Except that Jerome tends to translate with intendere, a good translation of προσέχω, not so much for προέχω.
@Barry, are you saying that intendere is a good translation of προσέχω? The verb in the second part of Paslm 69:2 in the Vulgate is festināre. Because the first half of the verse has no verb in Greek, εἰς τὸ σῶσαί με κύριον, I guess that the intendere was supplied as needed by the Latin grammar, also from προσέχω presumably.
jeidsath wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:40 pm
LSJ προέχω B.II.1 in running, to be the first, have the start, Il.23.325: c. gen., ἡμέρης ὁδῷ π. τῶν Περσέων keep ahead of them by a day's march, Hdt.4.120; προέχων τῶν ἄλλων [ὁ ἵππος] getting before the rest, Id.9.22; τῇ κεφαλῇ π. beat by a head, in racing, X.Cyr.4.3.16: of Time, προεῖχε [ἡ τριήρης] ἡμέρᾳ καὶ νυκτί started first by . . , Th.3.49; π. εἴκοσιν ἔτεσιν Pl.Lg.879c: metaph., have the advantage of, τινὸς τῷ διπλασίῳ Antipho3.3.2.
It's even possible that they only meant "hurry", and that the idea of being first was suppressed. But whether they meant "hurry" or "be first", it seems to be a normal enough translation by LXX standards, ...
@Joel, if I'm following this, you're taking πρόσχες in Psalm 69:2 as from προέχω. "Hurry to my aid" "be the first to (offer me) aid".
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 964
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC
Contact:

Re: Psalm 69:2 LXX to Vulgate πρόσχες -> festina

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:22 pm

I think we need somebody to say definitively whether there is a form πρόσσχες that could have been used?

FWIW
Vita Barlaam et Joasaph 22.1 cuts to the chase and uses σπεῦσον.
Ὁ Ἰωάσαφ δέ, μετὰ τὸ ἐξελθεῖν τὸν Βαρλαάμ, εὐχῇ ἑαυτὸν ἐδίδου καὶ δάκρυσι θερμοτάτοις, καὶ ἔλεγεν: Ὦ Θεός, εἰς τὴν βοήθειαν μου πρόσχες. Κύριε, εἰς τὸ βοηθῆσαί μοι σπεῦσον, ὅτι ...
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

User avatar
Barry Hofstetter
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1010
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: Psalm 69:2 LXX to Vulgate πρόσχες -> festina

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:06 am

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:14 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:57 pm
ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:03 pm
It is not plausible that this πρόσχες could be the imperative of προέχω, is it?
Except that Jerome tends to translate with intendere, a good translation of προσέχω, not so much for προέχω.
@Barry, are you saying that intendere is a good translation of προσέχω? The verb in the second part of Paslm 69:2 in the Vulgate is festināre. Because the first half of the verse has no verb in Greek, εἰς τὸ σῶσαί με κύριον, I guess that the intendere was supplied as needed by the Latin grammar, also from προσέχω presumably.
I'm sorry, I must not have been clear. I also thought it was a first half second half thing until I read the text critical notes. The first part is the translation from the LXX, the second part is the translation from the Hebrew.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 964
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC
Contact:

Re: Psalm 69:2 LXX to Vulgate πρόσχες -> festina / intende

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:43 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:06 am
The first part is the translation from the LXX, the second part is the translation from the Hebrew.
I saw that earlier post, but didn't understand it correctly, I think.

Now, if I understand it correctly, the critical version of the Vulgate interlines the two versions...
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:23 am
The critical version of the Vulgate, the Biblia Sacra Vulgata,

Deus in adiutorium meum intende †
※Domine ad adiuvandum me festina:
...
The notes indicate that the first sentence follows the LXX, and the second sentence was added from the Theodotian version of the Hebrew. The Masoretic text has:

אֱלֹהִ֥ים לְהַצִּילֵ֑נִי יְ֝הוָ֗ה לְעֶזְרָ֥תִי חֽוּשָֽׁה
...
So, those two lines of Latin are both translations of the second half of the verse. Both of them talk about help not deliverance or salvation:
Deus in adiutorium meum intende, from ὁ θεός εἰς τὴν βοήθειάν μου πρόσχες and
Domine ad adiuvandum me festina: from יְ֝הוָ֗ה לְעֶזְרָ֥תִי חֽוּשָֽׁה

If I've got that correctly, my original question that asked about πρόσχες -> festina was wrong, then. It is actually πρόσχες -> intende and חֽוּשָֽׁה -> festina.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 964
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC
Contact:

Re: Psalm 69:2 LXX to Vulgate πρόσχες -> festina

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:08 pm

Let me ask a question and answer it.

What, then happened to the first part of the verse talking about deliverance / salvation (נָצַל -> σῶσαι) in the Vulgate?

The versification is different. Let me rearrange the LXX and MT in terms of how the Vulgate gives its first verse:
Psalm 69:1,2 wrote:εἰς τὸ τέλος τῷ Δαυιδ εἰς ἀνάμνησιν 2 εἰς τὸ σῶσαί με κύριον
ὁ θεός εἰς τὴν βοήθειάν μου πρόσχες
Psalm 69:1 wrote:in finem David in rememoratione eo quod salvum me fecit Dominus ...
Psal 70:1 wrote:לַ֝מְנַצֵּ֗חַ לְדָוִ֥ד לְהַזְכִּֽיר׃ אֱלֹהִ֥ים לְהַצִּילֵ֑נִי
יְ֝הוָ֗ה לְעֶזְרָ֥תִי חֽוּשָֽׁה׃
In the MT the "In remembrance (of) when God saved me" from the title has moved into the start of the prayer, and has been grammatically adjusted.

In the LXX, the Hebrew preposition has been retained. If it is reassigned to the heading, the literal-ness of the εἰς is grating but understadable, leaving only the one phrase ὁ θεός εἰς τὴν βοήθειάν μου πρόσχες with its one verb.

In the Vulgate, Jerome has understood the LXX's εἰς τὸ σῶσαί με κύριον as part of the heading, both when translating from the Greek and from the Hebrew. Later editor, possibky seeingnthat there were two phrases in the verse in both the Greek and Hebrew supplemented the missing part of the verse with another rendering of the "second" part of the verse.

Being part of the heading, there is no need to repeat the verb, as the ESV has had to do.

What do you think?
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 964
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC
Contact:

Re: Psalm 69:2 LXX to Vulgate πρόσχες -> festina

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:39 pm

Again in answer to my own question, so as to get other people's opinion of it,

I think that the following has happened in the translation process:
The LXX translator had a text with חֽוּשָֽׁה
The LXX translator rendered חֽוּשָֽׁה by πρόσχες a form of προέχω, in the simplified meaning of "hasten" that Joel suggests.
Jerome (or his OL predecessors), perhaps being unaware of that meaning of προέχω in the dialect of Greek of the LXX translator, read πρόσχες as a form of προσέχω and rendered it by intendere.
Jerome's later translated from חֽוּשָֽׁה as festina.

[The "translation" (rephrasing into the venacular) of πρόσχες in the prayer mentioned above in Vita Barlaam et Joasaph, as Κύριε, εἰς τὸ βοηθῆσαί μοι σπεῦσον, is difficult to take as difinitive evidence of one meaning or the other meaning of πρόσχες, because σπεύδειν's meaning covers both meanings from "be diligent" to "make haste".]
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

Post Reply