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κόνδυ in augury Gen 44:5, and 15

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:45 pm
by ἑκηβόλος
44:5 wrote:ἵνα τί ἐκλέψατέ μου τὸ κόνδυ τὸ ἀργυροῦν οὐ τοῦτό ἐστιν ἐν ᾧ πίνει ὁ κύριός μου αὐτὸς δὲ οἰωνισμῷ οἰωνίζεται ἐν αὐτῷ
44:15 wrote:οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι οἰωνισμῷ οἰωνιεῖται ἄνθρωπος οἷος ἐγώ
Was this particular drinking vessel, the κόνδυ, usually associated with augury? Is it a ritual vessel?

Re: κόνδυ in augury Gen 44:5, and 15

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:06 pm
by Barry Hofstetter
Well, the problem is that it's an extremely rare word. I couldn't track down the references in the LSJ, but I'm betting that they will not indicate a ritual use. Here is the Hebrew:

גָּבִיעַ: גבע; like → קֻבַּעַת, Eg. loan word qbḥw ? (Koehler JBL 59:36): cs. גְּבִיעַ, גְבִיעִי, גְּבִעִים, גְּבִיעֶיהָ: —1. (drinking) bowl (Sept. κόνδυ, κεράμιον, Tg. כַּלִּידָא, Dalman Arbeit 4:391) Gn 442.12.16f (silver, for fortune-telling, → נחשׁ pi.), Jr 355 (:: the smaller → כּוֹס; Honeyman 80 :: jug Kelso §37); —2. (golden) candleholder Ex 2531-34 3717-20. †

Koehler, L., Baumgartner, W., Richardson, M. E. J., & Stamm, J. J. (1994–2000). The Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon of the Old Testament (electronic ed., p. 173). Leiden: E.J. Brill.

The † at the end of the HALOT entry means that every citation in the Tanakh is included.

Re: κόνδυ in augury Gen 44:5, and 15

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:53 am
by ἑκηβόλος
Barry Hofstetter wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:06 pmHere is the Hebrew:

גָּבִיעַ: גבע; like → קֻבַּעַת, Eg. loan word qbḥw ?
ImageImageImageImageImageImage qbḥw is either a libation (of water), or the vessel for pouring a libation.

That's for the possible relationship between Middle Egyptian and Hebrew.

For the Greek, the passages in the Deinososhists and Eusebius are quite easy to call up.

Re: κόνδυ in augury Gen 44:5, and 15

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:05 pm
by Barry Hofstetter
Ah, yes, and that includes the Menander citation I was looking for. But there's nothing in the usages which indicates to me a ritual usage.

Re: κόνδυ in augury Gen 44:5, and 15

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:09 pm
by jeidsath
The section on κόνδυ in Deipnosophists had a couple of Egyptian references.
Νικόμαχος δ᾽ ἐν πρώτῳ περὶ Ἑορτῶν Αἰγυπτίων φησί: τὸ δὲ κόνδυ ἐστὶ μὲν Περσικόν, τὴν δὲ ἀρχὴν ἣν Ἕρμιππος ἀστρολογικὸς ὡς ὁ κόσμος ἐξ οὗ τῶν θεῶν τὰ θαύματα καὶ τὰ καρπώσιμα γίνεσθαι ἐπὶ γῆς: διὸ ἐκ τούτου σπένδεσθαι.
I would think that it's saying something like "Nikomachus in the first book of Concerning Egyptian Festivals says: the κόνδυ is Persian, but according to Hermippos the Astrologer's Order of the Gods' Blessings and Gifts, it was the first [divine gift] to appear on earth, and this is why they toast from it."

Hermippos is speaking about alcohol, I would think. But I don't know if I have that translation right. The Loeb simply brackets it, and I haven't looked at other translations. But I would think that it's likely something like that.

Re: κόνδυ in augury Gen 44:5, and 15

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:50 pm
by seneca2008
The newest loeb (Athenaeus. The Learned Banqueters, Volume V: Books 10.420e-11. Edited and translated by S. Douglas Olson. Loeb Classical Library 274. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2009.) has:
Νικόμαχος δ᾿ ἐν πρώτῳ Περὶ Ἑορτῶν Αἰγυπτίων φησί· τὸ δὲ κόνδυ ἐστὶ μὲν Περσικόν, τὴν δὲ ἀρχὴν † ἣν Ἕρμιππος ἀστρολογικὸς ὡς ὁ κόσμος ἐξ οὗ τῶν θεῶν τὰ θαύματα καὶ τὰ καρπώσιμα γίνεσθαι ἐπὶ γῆς † διὸ ἐκ τούτου σπένδεσθαι. Παγκράτης δ᾿ ἐν πρώτῳ Βοκχορηΐδος·
αὐτὰρ ὅ γε σπείσας ἐκ κόνδυος ἀργυφέοιο |
b. νέκταρ ἐπ᾿ ἀλλοδαπὴν οἶμον ἔβαινε πόδα.
Nicomachus says in Book I of On Egyptian Festivals (FGrH 662 F 1): The kondu is a Persian vessel, but originally † which the astrologer Hermippus (SH 486 = fr. 102 Wehrli) that the created order from which the marvels and profitable deeds of the gods occurred on earth, † which is why it is used to pour libations. Pancrates in Book I of the Bocchoreïs (SH 602):
But after he poured a libation of nectar from a silver
kondu, he set off on a journey to another land.
The text is corrupt which is no doubt why you had difficulty translating it.

Re: κόνδυ in augury Gen 44:5, and 15

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:57 pm
by jeidsath
Yes, I mentioned that about the Loeb version in my post.