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Mindy

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Post by Mindy » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:24 am

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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Greek text for I Kings 6: 11

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:47 pm

The Masoretic Text and the LXX are quite different here:

11 ἡ πλευρὰ ἡ ὑποκάτω πέντε πήχεων ἐν πήχει τὸ πλάτος αὐτῆς, καὶ τὸ μέσον ἕξ, καὶ ἡ τρίτη ἑπτὰ ἐν πήχει τὸ πλάτος αὐτῆς· ὅτι διάστημα ἔδωκεν τῷ οἴκῳ κυκλόθεν ἔξωθεν τοῦ οἴκου, ὅπως μὴ ἐπιλαμβάνωνται τῶν τοίχων τοῦ οἴκου.

Swete, H. B. (1909). The Old Testament in Greek: According to the Septuagint (3 Kgdms 6:10–11). Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

Mindy

Thanks

Post by Mindy » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:10 pm

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C. S. Bartholomew
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Re: Greek text for I Kings 6: 11

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:21 pm

Mindy wrote: But here is the verse in King James Version:
And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying,

This doesn't match that Greek verse.
I Kings 6: 11-13 is a long minus (text omitted) in the Greek version. This isn't uncommon. You will run into these periodically.

The Septuagint and the Text of the Old Testament
peter j. gentry
https://www.ibr-bbr.org/files/bbr/BBR_2 ... Gentry.pdf
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Mindy

Thanks

Post by Mindy » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:36 pm

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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Greek text for I Kings 6: 11

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:40 pm

Mindy wrote:Thank you, C. Stirling Bartholomew.

Actually today I read the verse from the interpretation of Exodus 26 in Hebrew. It's short. So I want to learn it in Greek.

Are there any interpretation of Torah in the New Testament?
Here is a similar construction:

ῥῆμα Κυρίου ἐγένετο πρὸς Ἠλειοὺ

Swete, H. B. (1909). The Old Testament in Greek: According to the Septuagint (3 Kgdms 18:1). Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

Mindy

Thanks

Post by Mindy » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:11 pm

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C. S. Bartholomew
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Re: Greek text for I Kings 6: 11

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:29 pm

Mindy,

1Pet. 1:25 τὸ δὲ ῥῆμα κυρίου μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. τοῦτο δέ ἐστιν τὸ ῥῆμα τὸ εὐαγγελισθὲν εἰς ὑμᾶς

Is this what you are looking for? Not clear what you are after.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Greek text for I Kings 6: 11

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:46 pm

Mindy wrote:
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Here is a similar construction:

ῥῆμα Κυρίου ἐγένετο πρὸς Ἠλειοὺ
Sorry, I don't know what it means.
"The word of the Lord came to Elijah..."
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

C. S. Bartholomew
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Re: Greek text for I Kings 6: 11

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:46 pm

1Kings 12:22 καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Σαμαιαν ἄνθρωπον τοῦ θεοῦ λέγων

1Kings 13:20 καὶ ἐγένετο αὐτῶν καθημένων ἐπὶ τῆς τραπέζης καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς τὸν προφήτην τὸν ἐπιστρέψαντα αὐτὸν

1Kings 16:1 καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου ἐν χειρὶ Ιου υἱοῦ Ανανι πρὸς Βαασα

1Kings 18:1 ¶ Καὶ ἐγένετο μεθ᾿ ἡμέρας πολλὰς καὶ ῥῆμα κυρίου ἐγένετο πρὸς Ηλιου ἐν τῷ ἐνιαυτῷ τῷ τρίτῳ λέγων Πορεύθητι καὶ ὄφθητι τῷ Αχααβ, καὶ δώσω ὑετὸν ἐπὶ πρόσωπον τῆς γῆς.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

C. S. Bartholomew
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Re: Greek text for I Kings 6: 11

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:04 pm

1Kings 12:22 καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Σαμαιαν ἄνθρωπον τοῦ θεοῦ λέγων

ויהי דבר האלהים אל־שׁמעיה אישׁ־האלהים לאמר
1Kings 12:22
ו ו ‎Particle conjunction and
יהי היה ‎Verb qal wawConsecutive third masculine singular apocopated to be
דבר דבר ‎Noun common masculine singular construct word, speech
ה ה ‎Particle article the
אלהים אלהים ‎Noun common masculine plural God
אל־ אל ‎Particle preposition to, toward
שׁמעיה שׁמעיה ‎Noun properName Shemaiah
אישׁ־ אישׁ ‎Noun common masculine singular man
ה ה ‎Particle article the
אלהים אלהים ‎Noun common masculine plural God
ל ל ‎Particle preposition to
אמר אמר־1 Verb qal infinitiveConstruct to say
Last edited by C. S. Bartholomew on Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Mindy

Thanks

Post by Mindy » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:10 pm

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Re: Greek text for I Kings 6: 11

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:15 pm

Mindy wrote:Thank you, Barry and C. Stirling Bartholomew.

Here is also a similar verse:
Jeremiah 1: 4 Καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρός με λέγων

from https://www.academic-bible.com/en/onlin ... d54e0c2cd/
Mindy,

Note the salient elements bolded and highlighted in my previous post. ויהי = Καὶ ἐγένετο. This a narrative connection which is all over the Hebrew Bible.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Mindy

Thanks

Post by Mindy » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:47 am

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Re: Greek text for I Kings 6: 11

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:01 pm

Mindy wrote:
Now I know that ויהי = καί εγένετο.
Clause initial (upfront) καί εγένετο <or> εγένετο are frequently found in Luke's Gospel, particularly in the portions with no parallel in Mark.
Mindy wrote: There is another issue. Jews use portions of some historical or prophetical Books to interpret Torah portions. For example, when they read Exodus 25 - 27: 19, they use I Kings 5: 12 - 6: 13 to interpret that Torah portion. My question is: is there a New Testament portion to match them? One way of understanding the Bible is to use Scriptures to explain Scriptures. Maybe Matthew 24: 1 - 2 and John 2: 19 - 22 match them?
A New Testament portion to match what?

Matt. 24:1 Καὶ ἐξελθὼν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἀπὸ τοῦ ἱεροῦ ἐπορεύετο, καὶ προσῆλθον οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ ἐπιδεῖξαι αὐτῷ τὰς οἰκοδομὰς τοῦ ἱεροῦ. 2 ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· οὐ βλέπετε ταῦτα πάντα; ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐ μὴ ἀφεθῇ ὧδε λίθος ἐπὶ λίθον ὃς οὐ καταλυθήσεται.

John 2:19 ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· λύσατε τὸν ναὸν τοῦτον καὶ ἐν τρισὶν ἡμέραις ἐγερῶ αὐτόν. 20 εἶπαν οὖν οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι· τεσσεράκοντα καὶ ἓξ ἔτεσιν οἰκοδομήθη ὁ ναὸς οὗτος, καὶ σὺ ἐν τρισὶν ἡμέραις ἐγερεῖς αὐτόν; 21 ἐκεῖνος δὲ ἔλεγεν περὶ τοῦ ναοῦ τοῦ σώματος αὐτοῦ. 22 ὅτε οὖν ἠγέρθη ἐκ νεκρῶν, ἐμνήσθησαν οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ ὅτι τοῦτο ἔλεγεν, καὶ ἐπίστευσαν τῇ γραφῇ καὶ τῷ λόγῳ ὃν εἶπεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς.

You're suggesting using John to interpret and Matthew? Okay, I see where you're going with this. Yes, this is a regular practice in New Testament interpretation, both ancient and modern. It's more common in biblical theology and preaching than in the historical critical method.

At this point I could go off on a long rant concerning post-enlightenment secular biblical studies but this isn't the forum for that discussion.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Mindy

Thanks

Post by Mindy » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:43 pm

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Re: Greek text for I Kings 6: 11

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:32 pm

Mindy wrote:Today I have been learning Hebrew Exodus 36: 7 - 19 and I Kings 7: 46 - 47. But I couldn't find out I Kings 7: 46 in Greek from https://www.academic-bible.com/en/onlin ... bde998337/
Can someone help me? I want to know whether the plain in Greek is πεδίον.
Mindy,

1Kings 7:33 ἐν τῷ περιοίκῳ τοῦ Ιορδάνου ἐχώνευσεν αὐτὰ ὁ βασιλεὺς ἐν τῷ πάχει τῆς γῆς ἀνὰ μέσον Σοκχωθ καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον Σιρα.

1Kings 7:32 οὐκ ἦν σταθμὸς τοῦ χαλκοῦ, οὗ ἐποίησεν πάντα τὰ ἔργα ταῦτα, ἐκ πλήθους σφόδρα· οὐκ ἦν τέρμα τῷ σταθμῷ τοῦ χαλκοῦ.

I Kings 7: 46a בככר הירדן
1Kings 7:33 ἐν τῷ περιοίκῳ τοῦ Ιορδάνου

Does this work from your location? I am talking to David Instone-Brewer about accsess to STEP from China.
https://www.stepbible.org/?q=version=ES ... ions=HNVUG
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Mindy

Re: Greek text for I Kings 6: 11

Post by Mindy » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:01 pm

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Re: Greek text for I Kings 6: 11

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:33 pm

Mindy wrote:Thank you, C. S. Bartholomew.

Yes, I can access to STEP.

בככר (in 1Kings 7: 46a בככר הירדן) = ἐν τῷ περιοίκῳ (1Kings 7:33 ἐν τῷ περιοίκῳ τοῦ Ιορδάνου) = in the plain
Mindy,

ἐν τῷ περιοίκῳ τοῦ Ιορδάνου) NOT = in the plain
περίοικος,-ος,-ον+ A 3-5-1-0-0-9
Gn 19:25,29; Dt 1:7; JgsB 1:27(quater)dwelling round ; ἡ περίοικος (χώρα) country round about Gn 19:25; ὁ περίοικος region round about 1 Kgs 7:33(46); τὰ περίοικα territories JgsB 1:27; οἱ περίοικοι neighbours Dt 1:7 LEH[1]
Mindy wrote: Yes, I can access to STEP.
Follow the link I gave you to STEP. Hover or click on the word περιοίκῳ. STEP will provide you solutions to all such questions. It takes only a little time to get proficient with it. STEP uses LSJ and NT meanings for words. So occasionally adjustments need to be made for Greek OT. περίοικος is an example, neighbor -> neighborhood, region.


[1]A Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint, ed. by J. Lust, E. Eynikel, and K. Hauspie, in cooperation with G. Chamberlain.
© 1992, 1997 by Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, Stuttgart.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

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Re: Greek text for I Kings 6: 11

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:39 pm

Mindy wrote: But the Valley (of Megiddo) in Hebrew (2Chr. 35:22) was translated into the plain both in Greek and Chinese:

כב וְלֹא-הֵסֵב יֹאשִׁיָּהוּ פָנָיו מִמֶּנּוּ, כִּי לְהִלָּחֵם-בּוֹ הִתְחַפֵּשׂ, וְלֹא שָׁמַע אֶל-דִּבְרֵי נְכוֹ, מִפִּי אֱלֹהִים; וַיָּבֹא, לְהִלָּחֵם בְּבִקְעַת מְגִדּוֹ.

22 Nevertheless Josiah would not turn his face from him, but disguised himself, that he might fight with him, and hearkened not unto the words of Neco, from the mouth of God, and came to fight in the valley of Megiddo.

...ἀλλ᾽ ἢ πολεμεῖν αὐτὸν ἐκραταιώθη καὶ οὐκ ἤκουσεν τῶν λόγων Νεχαω διὰ στόματος θεοῦ καὶ ἦλθεν τοῦ πολεμῆσαι ἐν τῷ πεδίῳ Μαγεδων.



22
约西亚却不肯转去离开他,改装要与他打仗,不听从神藉尼哥之口所说的话,便来到米吉多平原争战。
Mindy,

I took the time to check how every occurrence of בקעה in the Hebrew Bible was tranlated into Old Greek (Rahlfs). Only found one exception to πεδίον.

Deut. 34:3 καὶ τὴν ἔρημον καὶ τὰ περίχωρα Ιεριχω, πόλιν φοινίκων, ἕως Σηγωρ.

This might suggest the translator encountered a different Hebrew word at Deut. 34:3.

The passage 1Kings 7:46 involves a different Hebrew word: ככר
n.f. a round: hence 1. a round district. 2. a round loaf. 3. a round weight, talent —
1. the round (or oval) esp. of the Jordan valley. BDB
1Kings 7:46 בככר הירדן
1Kings 7:33 ἐν τῷ περιοίκῳ τοῦ Ιορδάνου
"In the country round about the Jordan" (STEP LXX "AB" Translation)

postscript:
To search in STEP for every occurrence of the Hebrew word: ככר you display 1Kings 7:46 in Hebrew, Greek, ESV, Chinese, click on the word and then click "search for this word" link in the vocabulary sidebar. Step will display every verse with Hebrew word and it's modern translation (ESV, Chinese) equivalent highlighted. STEP doesn't currently have the database for linking the Hebrew word with the Greek word.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Mindy

Thanks

Post by Mindy » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:14 am

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Mindy

Thanks

Post by Mindy » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:42 am

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Mindy

Thanks

Post by Mindy » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:04 pm

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C. S. Bartholomew
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Re: Greek text for I Kings 6: 11

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:06 pm

Mindy wrote: I suggest that STEP will give the LXX references(7:33...).

Mindy
Thank you for the suggestion. I totally agree with you. Sent a detailed response by email.

CSB
C. Stirling Bartholomew

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