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Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:02 pm
by C. S. Bartholomew
Mindy,

RE: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel

My friends at Tyndale House have a public access bible system that allows you to use Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear/interleaved. I'm not certain you'll be able to access it from your location.

you could try this link:
https://www.stepbible.org/?q=version=CU ... NTERLINEAR

or this:

https://www.stepbible.org

I'd be willing to help you learn how to use it.

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:35 am
by Mindy
deleted

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:54 pm
by C. S. Bartholomew
Mindy,

David and others have videos and help files explaining with examples. I'll explain in words what David illustrates with examples.

https://stepweb.atlassian.net/wiki/spac ... k+overview



The search box at the top of the screen is used for almost everything. To select any bible you type the first letters of the name in the search box and a menu open. Mouse-click to select the Bible you want to display. You can display as many Bibles as you can fit on your screen.

If you want to see a full list of available bibles click in the search box and then click the Blue link at the lower left of the search box labeled "pick a Bible or commentary." Then click on the button labeled: All. This is a huge list, fortunately Chinese bibles are not too far down the list.

There are five Chinese versions at this time. Two versions have the best features. They display a code GVI after the name. With these Bibles you can hover over a Chinese word and the word it translates will be highlighted in the ancient version, assuming do you choose an ancient version with the same features codes.

So a typical scenario would be to select CUn version, then type SBL in the search box and select SBLGNT, then type mat 23 in search box and select Matt Ch. 23. Click the search button at the right of the search box. Now hover and click on words in Chinese or Greek and watch what happens.

To change viewing options click on the gear symbol at the top right of the bible window. Select or deselect the options and observe the display changes. Viewing options change depending on the capabilities of a particular Bible. For the best display features choose a bible with several letter codes, for example GVI or NVI.

To see a full list of ancient bibles, click in the search box and then click the Blue link at the lower left of the search box labeled "pick a Bible or commentary." Then click on the button labeled: Ancient.


All Bibles Will display interleaved or in parallel columns.

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:08 am
by Mindy
deleted

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:27 pm
by C. S. Bartholomew
Mindy wrote:C. Stirling Bartholomew,

Thank you.

Yesterday evening I couldn't figure out how to use it on cell phone. Now I am trying to figure out at computer. I can use it on computer. It's very useful.

In order to listen to Hebrew reading and chanting, sometimes I have to visit such a Jewish website: http://bible.ort.org/books/torahd5.asp & http://bible.ort.org/books/haftarotd4.asp
Mindy,

The last time I talked to David Instone-Brewer, he indicated the STEP Bible for cell phones was still under development. That may explain the difficulties. If you have any more questions about the Step Bible I would be more than happy to help you find the answers.

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:54 am
by Mindy
Thanks.

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:27 pm
by C. S. Bartholomew
Mindy wrote: I have found Hebrew Bible at Step Bible. But there are no circumflex on the Hebrew letters. The Hebrew - Chinese parallel has circumflex. But the Hebrew writing order is not Hebrew, though the parallel matches when the bilingual texts are put in the same order. Hebrew writing begins from right to left. Chinese and other languages' writing begin the other way around.
Mindy,
The Hebrew Bibles in STEP should always display right to left no matter what the display options are set to. I understand you're having a problem with Hebrew Bibles displaying from left to right.

I am not quite sure why your Hebrew text isn't displaying correctly. In the past I have had problems displaying Hebrew in Safari where the vowel points didn't align properly with the consonants. However, I have never experienced the situation where the Hebrew didn't read right to left. What should happen when you use the inter-linear display option, the Hebrew should read right to left with Chinese words underneath in the Hebrew order. When you set the display to the interleaved display option, Hebrew and Chinese should both display in their normal order as you see in the sample below. I generally use Firefox instead of Safari for displaying the STEP Bible. I tested this today in both Firefox and Safari and both worked fine on Macintosh OS 10.13.3 using up-to-date versions of Firefox and Safari.

The following is a sample: I set the STEP Bible to the Chinese language-interface and then displayed Jer 51:1 in three bibles with the interleaved display option:

Jer 51:1
(
(OHB)כֹּה אָמַר יְהוָה הִנְנִי מֵעִיר עַל־בָּבֶל וְאֶל־יֹשְׁבֵי לֵב קָמָי רוּחַ מַשְׁחִֽית׃
(WLC)כֹּה אָמַר יְהוָה הִנְנִי מֵעִיר עַל־בָּבֶל וְאֶל־יֹשְׁבֵי לֵב קָמָי רוּחַ מַשְׁחִֽית׃
(MapM)   כֹּה אָמַר יְהֹוָה הִנְנִי מֵעִיר עַל־בָּבֶל וְאֶל־יֹשְׁבֵי לֵב קָמָי רוּחַ מַשְׁחִֽית׃
(CUn)耶和華如此說:我必使毀滅的風颳起,攻擊巴比倫和住在立加米的人。
(CUns)耶和华如此说:我必使毁灭的风刮起,攻击巴比伦和住在立加米的人。


Text display problems are normally related to either the browser or the operating system. STEP was developed to run on Windows, Linux, Mac OS, iOS. So I suspect the problem is with the browser. I have no way to test iOS. Before I contact the STEP development team I need to know the name and version of your browser and operating system. That's the first thing they will ask me.

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:24 pm
by Mindy
Thanks.

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:29 pm
by ἑκηβόλος
C. S. Bartholomew wrote:Mindy,

RE: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel

My friends at Tyndale House have a public access bible system that allows you to use Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear/interleaved. I'm not certain you'll be able to access it from your location.

you could try this link:
https://www.stepbible.org/?q=version=CU ... NTERLINEAR
Hi CSB 老哥,
The order that you add things to the search / display line is significant. The link you provided to Mindy displays the (King James- based Union version of the) Chinese in its correct order, with the Hebrew out of order underneath it.

If you enter the OHB into the search bar first, followed by the CUns next, the text is presented in the Hebrew text order with the Chinese below it. That seems more natural for somebody wanting to understand the Hebrew. The URL for that is https://www.stepbible.org/?q=version=OH ... NTERLINEAR

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:49 pm
by Mindy
Thanks.

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:00 pm
by C. S. Bartholomew
ἑκηβόλος wrote: Hi CSB 老哥,
The order that you add things to the search / display line is significant. The link you provided to Mindy displays the (King James- based Union version of the) Chinese in its correct order, with the Hebrew out of order underneath it.

If you enter the OHB into the search bar first, followed by the CUns next, the text is presented in the Hebrew text order with the Chinese below it. That seems more natural for somebody wanting to understand the Hebrew.
Outstanding! ἑκηβόλος,
"get you case of beer for that ..."
Lieutenant Colonel William "Bill" Kilgore, 1st Squadron, 9th Air Cavalry Regiment
So this only applies to inter-linear display mode.

Thank you, CSB

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:01 pm
by ἑκηβόλος
The resulting interlinear - Hebrew over Chinese - is not without issues. At present, the Chinese Union Version is the only one able to properly interline with the Hebrew, but the Chinese words under the Hebrew are the word that was used in the Chinese to translate the Hebew, rather than the meaning of tne Hebrew word, if it were taken in itself.

An example is עַל ("upon") in Genesis 1:2. The word corresponding to it in Chinese is 面 ("surface", "face" without a preposition), but that is actually the translation of פְּנֵי "face". In effect, because Chinese uses a nominal phrase (doesn't need a preposition) עַל is not rendered in the interlinear.

That is not a major problem, but it may cause a little confussion at the word level.

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:14 pm
by C. S. Bartholomew
ἑκηβόλος wrote:The resulting interlinear - Hebrew over Chinese - is not without issues. At present, the Chinese Union Version is the only one able to properly interline with the Hebrew, but the Chinese words under the Hebrew are the word that was used in the Chinese to translate the Hebew, rather than the meaning of tne Hebrew word, if it were taken in itself.

An example is עַל in Genesis 1:2. The word corresponding to it in Chinese is 面 ("surface", "face" without a preposition), but that is actually the translation of פְּנֵי "face". In effect עַל is not rendered in the interlinear.

That is not a major problem, but it may cause a little confussion at the word level.
The codes at the right after the name of the Bible tell you what it will do. The two Chinese Bibles that will display inter-linear have an "I" code: GVI. G is for grammar codes I is for inter-linear. Chinese users are fortunate in comparison to most languages which don't have interlinear option at all. You must use an ancient language text which also has an I code. Both Hebrew and Greek have multiple Bibles what that are inter-linear capable. There are Chinese people on the development team who can explain that Chinese part better than I can.

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:15 pm
by ἑκηβόλος
Mindy wrote:But the problem with this one is that this time Chinese is written from right to left :lol: .
Yesterday once more ... That was the norm in ancient times. :wink:

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:18 pm
by C. S. Bartholomew
ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Mindy wrote:But the problem with this one is that this time Chinese is written from right to left :lol: .
Yesterday once more ...
The problem goes away if you select the inter-leave display mode. Click on the little gear icon under the right side of the search entry box, select inter-leave display mode.

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:20 pm
by ἑκηβόλος
C. S. Bartholomew wrote:The codes at the right after the name of the Bible tell you what it will do. The only two Chinese Bibles will doing inter-linear have an "I" code GVI. G is for grammar codes I is for inter-linear. Chinese users are fortunate in comparison to most languages which don't have interlinear at all. You must use an ancient language text which also has an I code. Both Hebrew and Greek have multiple Bibles what tha are inter-linear capable. There are Chinese people on the development team who can explain that Chinese part better than I can.
Yes. It is clearly a word-for-word interlinear designed to show the Vorlage of each word of a particular translation, rather than an interlinear showing the meaning of each word of the Hebrew text individualy.

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:42 pm
by C. S. Bartholomew
ἑκηβόλος wrote:
C. S. Bartholomew wrote:The codes at the right after the name of the Bible tell you what it will do. The only two Chinese Bibles will doing inter-linear have an "I" code GVI. G is for grammar codes I is for inter-linear. Chinese users are fortunate in comparison to most languages which don't have interlinear at all. You must use an ancient language text which also has an I code. Both Hebrew and Greek have multiple Bibles what tha are inter-linear capable. There are Chinese people on the development team who can explain that Chinese part better than I can.
Yes. It is clearly a word-for-word interlinear designed to show the Vorlage of each word of a particular translation, rather than an interlinear showing the meaning of each word of the Hebrew text individualy.
That's correct, it's an arrangement of an existing modern language translation attempting to align the equivalent constituents in the source and target languages. This is similar in concept to E. Tov's MT-LXX. This works reasonably well with formal equivalence translations in languages with a similar structure. Otherwise someone will have to sit down and spend half their lifetime producing a hyper literal translation in the target language intended for interlinear use (e.g., Jay Green). This is very labor-intensive.

I just paged through the long list of bibles STEP currently has available. Interlinear capability is only available for Chinese, Spanish, Czech, English. I found no Japanese bible of any sort. All the Bibles in the list will display interleaved. Developing an Interlinear and grammatically tagged Chinese Bible was labor-intensive. Someone had to volunteer to do that. It may have been converted from an existing electronic Chinese Bible which was made legally accessible to the STEP Bible project. Even a conversion Is a significant amount of work. These people are not being paid for their time.

Postscript:
The number of STEP bibles in languages from Papua New Guinea was amazing. Anyone familiar with mid-20th century Bible translation literature well immediately recognize Papua New Guinea.

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:34 pm
by C. S. Bartholomew
Mindy,

STEP Septuagint bibles are not capable of interlinear display with the Hebrew MT. This is not at all surprising. Aligning the Septuagint with the Hebrew MT is a very complex problem[1]. However there is no problem displaying Septuagint bibles interleaved with the Hebrew MT.
Jer 51:1
(OHB)כֹּ֚ה אָמַ֣ר יְהוָ֔ה הִנְנִי֙ מֵעִ֣יר עַל־בָּבֶ֔ל וְאֶל־יֹשְׁבֵ֖י לֵ֣ב קָמָ֑י ר֖וּחַ מַשְׁחִֽית׃
(LXX) Τάδε λέγει κύριος Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξεγείρω ἐπὶ Βαβυλῶνα καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς κατοικοῦντας Χαλδαίους ἄνεμον καύσωνα διαφθείροντα.

[1] I'm have been working recently in the "old greek" (OG) version of Jeremiah which is substantially different from Masoretic Text. Several decades ago Emmanuel Tov developed a parallel aligned database of the MT-LXX which aligns words between the LXX and Hebrew MT to the extent that it is possible. A system of standardized notations are used to deal with major discrepancies between the Greek and Hebrew texts.

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:00 am
by Mindy
deleted

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:12 am
by Mindy
deleted

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:10 am
by ἑκηβόλος
Mindy wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Mindy wrote:But the problem with this one is that this time Chinese is written from right to left :lol: .
Yesterday once more ... That was the norm in ancient times. :wink:
I know that was the norm in ancient times. But the problem is that the Chinese is out of order. It's the result of interlinear.
There is an assumption that you will read the Chinese version itself, if you want to read good Chinese. Reading or quoting the Chinese in Greek or Hebrew word order is not the aim of an interlinear.

There is a Christian "sub-culture" in some circles (I'm not sure if "sub-culture" is the right word) that has arisen from reading interlinear texts. By quoting English out of order and using clumsy verbal constructions people in that sub-culture signal to each other that they are somehow closer to the original word of God than people who just read Good English translations. They also feel the need to talk about the "real" or "true" meaning of the text by saying that they have read the original languages.

In fact, you don't need to quote Greek or Hebrew words, or to speak your Chinese out of order to show that you know Greek or Hebrew. It will show itself naturally.

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:10 pm
by C. S. Bartholomew
ἑκηβόλος wrote: There is a Christian "sub-culture" in some circles (I'm not sure if "sub-culture" is the right word) that has arisen from reading interlinear texts. By quoting English out of order and using clumsy verbal constructions people in that sub-culture signal to each other that they are somehow closer to the original word of God than people who just read Good English translations. They also feel the need to talk about the "real" or "true" meaning of the text by saying that they have read the original languages.

In fact, you don't need to quote Greek or Hebrew words, or to speak your Chinese out of order to show that you know Greek or Hebrew. It will show itself naturally.

I've had some exposure in the past to that subculture. I would call it the "bible study subculture." I had a friend in the early 1970s who was really into that big time. The late Lt Kenneth Talbot. His enthusiasm for self taught Bible study was infectious. He borrowed ideas from numerous sources including BSF and Kay Arthur. He taught a course on First Peter that participants remembered 40 years later. His methodology was not affected by much exposure to historical criticism or contemporary hermeneutics.

The same year I took my first course in hermeneutics 1975 I actually carried an interlinear GNT (Marshall's) to an adult Bible study on Romans. There were two women PhD's sitting there with their red UBSGNTs opening in their laps sneering at me as I taught the class. My two commentaries were both by theologians John Murray, Charles Hodge. I was studying theology (history of reformed dogma) not language and exegesis. I was no more qualified to expound the epistle to the Romans[1] than anyone else sitting in the room. Fortunately I understood that.

[1] I took a 300/500 level graduate course on Romans in the late 60's taught by a German, dr. Ralph Klein at SPU. Did not understand a word of what he was saying. Somehow managed to get through the course.

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:54 am
by Mindy
deleted

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:45 am
by ἑκηβόλος
Mindy wrote:Why is there different punctuation?

1 Corinthians 2: 15 in interlinear:
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/2-15.htm
Why is there a punctuation after αυτός?
Biblehub's pronunciation is wrong. The text that they are displaying is Nestle 1904. It is a transcription (copying) error.

The punctuation is correct in their source text, though.

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:48 pm
by Mindy
Thanks.

Re: Greek/Hebrew Chinese parallel/interlinear

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:09 pm
by ἑκηβόλος
Mindy wrote:I can't visit the google site.
It just presents the text of that text. Nothing new in itself.