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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:59 am
by Markos
Μᾶρκος ὁ φῶς φέρων τῷ Στεφάνῳ τῷ μακρόθεν βάλλοντι χαίρειν πλεῖστα ἐν Ἰησοῦ.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:ὁ Angoorie αἰγιαλὸς εὑρίσκεται ἐγγὺς τῆς παιδικῆς οἰκίας μου.Image
τί βλέπετε, ὦ φίλοι, ἐν τῷ φωτογραφήματι;
καλὰ ὁρῶ καὶ πολλά. πρὸ πάντων, ὕδωρ βλέπω. εἰ δὲ θάλασσαν ἢ λίμνην τεθέαμαι, σὺ μέν, φίλε ἑκηβόλε οἶδας, ἐγὼ δ' οὔκ. ἐν δὲ τῇ εἰκόνι χλωρὰ πεφανέρωταί μοι, καὶ λίθοι καὶ δένδρον τι φύλλων γυμνόν. τὴν δ' ἄμμον δείκνυσι τὸ φωτογράφημα. καὶ λίαν μικρὸν ὄρος ἀθρῶ, ἀλλὰ τοῦτο μόνον βουνὸν καλῶ. (καλῶς τοῦτο ὀνομάζω?) χαίρω δὲ βλέπων τὸν οὐρανὸν κύανον ὄντα.

ἀνθρώπους οὐκ ὁρῶ οὐδὲ πλοῖα.

τὸν Θεόν, ὦ φίλοι, ἐν τῇ φωτογραφῇ βλέπω ἔγωγε. πάντα γὰρ ἃ θεωρῶ οὗτος ἐποίησεν.

τί δέ βλέπουσιν οἱ ἄλλοι φίλοι?
ἑκηβόλος wrote:The child is the father of the man. (W.W., 1802)
the Beach Boys wrote:(Child child, child, the child)
Father of the man
(Father of the man, father of the man)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPz_PgFwpRU

ἃ ἦν ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς, ταῦτα τελεῖ σε.

ἐν ἀρχῇ τετέλεσται ὁ ἄνθρωπος.

ποῦ ἄρχομεν, ἐκεῖ τελοῦμεν.

ὑπο τοῦ παιδὸς παιδεύεται ὁ γέρων.

νήπιος ὤν, σόφος γέγονα.

παιδίον ἐγεννήθη ἡμῖν (Ἡσαίας 9:1). καὶ χωρὶς τούτου τοῦ παιδίου, οὐκ ἐγένετο ἓν ὃ γέγονεν (πρβλ. Ἰανν. 1:3) οὐδὲ σύγε.

νηπίαζε δή, ὦ γέρον, πᾶσιν!

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:10 pm
by ἑκηβόλος
Προσέχετε δὲ ἀπὸ τῶν ψευδοπροφητῶν, οἵτινες ἔρχονται πρὸς ὑμᾶς ἐν ἐνδύμασιν προβάτων, ἔσωθεν δέ εἰσιν λύκοι ἅρπαγες.
Καθίζοντες οἱ φίλοι ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ εἶπε τὶς αὐτῶν τῷ Στεφάνῳ λέγων, διὰ τί, ὦ φίλτατε, ἐθέλει ἀρπάζειν πρόβατα ὁ λύκος; ἐπισταφεὶς [Μ. ἐπιστραφεὶς] δὲ ὁ Στέφανος εἶδον νήπιον μετὰ τῶν γονέων αὐτοῦ πεινῶντα καὶ κλαίοντα, καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς τῷ ἐρώτημα ἔχοντι εἴπεν, ὅτι διὸ [Μ. διότι], ὦ κράτιστε, πεινᾷ ὁ λύκος αὐτὸς καὶ τροφῆς δεομένη ἡ ἑαυτοῦ λυκαίνα ἐξήλασεν αὐτὸν ἐκ τοῦ φωλεοῦ ἵνα ἀγρεύσας πρόβατον τρέφῃ αὐτὴν καὶ τοὺς σκύμνους αὐτῶν.


[…] - τὰ τοῦ Μιχαὴλ διωρθώματα

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:13 pm
by ἑκηβόλος
John 21:10 (μἐρος) wrote: Ἐνέγκατε ἀπὸ τῶν ὀψαρίων ὧν ἐπιάσατε νῦν.
διαταχθέντος τοῦ Κυρίου, ἀπετέλησεν ὁ Πέτρος. οἱ μὲν νεαλεὶς ἰχθύες οἱ ἐν τῷ δικτύῳ ἀναπηδήσαντες κατὰ φῦσιν ὥρμησαν πρὸς τὴν θάλασσαν. ὁ δὲ μαθητὴς ἐκεῖνος ἀφηβηκώς ἦν ἐρρωμένως εἵλκυσεν πρὸς τὸν Κύριον τὰ ὀψάρια. ἐκλεγόμενος ὁ ἀλιεὺς ἔνια ὀψάρια ἐκ τῆς ἄγρας, ἐκράτησεν αὐτῶν τὰ οὖρα ἵνα μὴ δάκνωσιν αὐτοῦ τοὺς δακτύλους. ὁ δὲ τεμών τὰ ὕπτια μέρη ἀπὸ τοῦ πρωκτοῦ πρὸς τὸ στέρνον ἐξέπλνεν τὰ ἔντερα ἐκ τῶν κοιλίων αὐτῶν. ὀβελίσκοις δὲ ἀναπείρων διὰ τοῦ στόματος τὰ ὀψάρια ἔδωκεν αὐτὰ τῷ προστάξαντι Κυρίῳ.

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:46 pm
by Markos
ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Προσέχετε δὲ ἀπὸ τῶν ψευδοπροφητῶν, οἵτινες ἔρχονται πρὸς ὑμᾶς ἐν ἐνδύμασιν προβάτων, ἔσωθεν δέ εἰσιν λύκοι ἅρπαγες.
Καθίζοντες οἱ φίλοι ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ εἶπε τὶς αὐτῶν τῷ Στεφάνῳ λέγων, διὰ τί, ὦ φίλτατε, ἐθέλει ἀρπάζειν πρόβατα ὁ λύκος; ἐπισταφεὶς δὲ ὁ Στέφανος εἶδον νήπιον μετὰ τῶν γονέων αὐτοῦ πεινῶντα καὶ κλαίοντα, καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς τῷ ἐρώτημα ἔχοντι εἴπεν, ὅτι διὸ, ὦ κράτιστε, πεινᾷ ὁ λύκος αὐτὸς καὶ τροφῆς δεομένη ἡ ἑαυτοῦ λυκαίνα ἐξήλασεν αὐτὸν ἐκ τοῦ φωλεοῦ ἵνα ἀρπάξας πρόβατον τρέφῃ αὐτὴν καὶ τοὺς σκύμνους αὐτῶν.
τὴν τοῦ λύκου φῦσιν, φίλτατε, καλῶς ἐξηγήσω σύγε. ὁ γὰρ λύκος μόνον ἵνα φάγῃ ἀποκτείνει. ὁ δ' ἄνθρωπος ἀποκτείνει διὰ τὸ ἁμαρτωλὸν εἶναι.

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:25 pm
by mwh
Markos, αμαρτωλος not –ον. (And φύσιν, short υ.)

εκηβ., επιστ⟨ρ⟩αφείς, ειδεν of course. Not διό (“which is why …”), but διότι would be fine.

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:59 am
by ἑκηβόλος
mwh wrote:εκηβ., Not διό (“which is why …”), .
Mark 15:1 wrote:Καὶ εὐθέως ἐπὶ τὸ πρωῒ συμβούλιον ποιήσαντες οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς μετὰ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων καὶ γραμματέων, καὶ ὅλον τὸ συνέδριον, δήσαντες τὸν Ἰησοῦν ἀπήνεγκαν καὶ παρέδωκαν τῷ Πιλάτῳ.
Οἱ πάντες ἀπήνεγκαν αὐτὸν, διὸ διελύθησεν τὸ συνέδριον.

(διαλύεται ἐκκλησία, συναγωγή ἢ συνέδριον.)

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:15 pm
by mwh
διελύθη

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:01 pm
by Markos
ὦ χαῖρε, φίλε ἑκηβόλε.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:(διαλύεται ἐκκλησία, συναγωγή ἢ συνέδριον.)
καλῶς εἶπας. ἡ δὲ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐκκλησία οὐ διαλυθήσεται εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:Οἱ πάντες ἀπήνεγκαν αὐτὸν, διὸ διελύθησεν τὸ συνέδριον.
ὡς μάλιστα. καὶ διελύπησεν τὸ συνέδριον τὸν Ἰησοῦν.

ἴθι πολλὰ ἐν Ἰησοῦ χαίρων.

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:01 pm
by ἑκηβόλος
mwh wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:διελύθησεν τὸ συνέδριον.
διελύθη
καταλαμβάνω. πῶς ἀνέχεις, ὦ Μιχαήλ, ὑμᾶς τοὺς συγγραφεὶς; ἡ καμία φράσις ἡμῶν ἐνέχει συντακτικὰς παραβάσεις.

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:34 pm
by Markos
καλῶς ἔγραψας κακῶς, φίλτατε. περὶ γὰρ τοῦ λυθ ἐνθυμοῦμαι:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:...διελύθησεν τὸ συνέδριον.
Markos wrote:διελύπησεν τὸ συνέδριον τὸν Ἰησοῦν.
οὐκ ἐλύθρωσεν τὸ συνέδριον τὸν Ἰησοῦν. ὁ δ' Ἰησοῦς ἡμᾶς ἐλυθρώσατο.

λυθρόω = λυτρόω -- ἀπολύω τινά. Μέσ. ἐξαγοράζω. (Λ.Σ.Κ.)

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:46 pm
by mwh
ἑκηβόλος wrote:πῶς ἀνέχεις, ὦ Μιχαήλ, ὑμᾶς τοὺς συγγραφεὶς; ἡ καμία φράσις ἡμῶν ἐνέχει συντακτικὰς παραβάσεις.
ἀλλ’ ὦ ἑκηβόλε σὺ φαίνει βουλόμενός τε καὶ δυνάμενος ἐπιδιδόναι ἐπὶ τὸ βέλτιον, διὸ ἐνίοτε διορθῶ (νυνὶ δ’ οὔ). ἐὰν μέντοι ἔτι πλείονα ποιεῖσθαι προκοπὴν βούλῃ κατὰ τὸ ἑλληνίζειν, δεήσει σε σπουδάζειν εἰς τὰ ὑπ’ αὐτῶν τῶν Ἑλλήνων γραφέντα μᾶλλον ἢ ὁμιλοῦντα τοῖς ἐνταῦθα ἠλιθίως παίζουσιν αὐτὸν συγγράφειν.

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:02 am
by ἑκηβόλος
mwh wrote:ἠλιθίως παίζο[ντες]
Not building up a set of constraints together with the possibilities in a language can result in over-extended creativity. Presumably you have chosen ἠλιθίως for the nuance of "not suspecting that something is amiss" or in a "good" sense, " who doesn't know what they're missing ".

The lack of a style and usage manual of Greek is partly to blame there. An example is the recent εὐδία ἔχει discussion - how can one know what idiomatuc usage there mught be. Currently available resources to help with composition are quite inadequate, so even if those those who ἠλιθίως παίζο[ντες] "play without being aware that there are rules to be followed" came to the point of realisation that freedom has constraints, it would be difficult for them to find what the contraints are. One of the resources that seems to offer hope in regard to εὐδία ἔχει is sections 40-49 of ἔχω (intransitive uses) in the forthcoming Cambridge Greek Lexicon. Have a look at Emeritus Professor James Diggles short duscussion at about the two minute mark of this You tube video. The unreferenced paper version won't be so much use as the electronic version with links to perseus. If the electronic version allows one to isolate all the intransitive uses of ἔχω, and specifically those examples where it means "continues (to be)", then it coukd be easily seen whether there are examples in their corpus of 70 authours where it is used without an explicit or implied adverbial complement.

The other obvious problems in composition is rendering of the wide-ranging English modal system and things like "probably" and "room", that have so many different (non-analogous) way to be expressed. The preference to develop meaning analogously by function rather than form is also somewhat askew to the expectations of English speakers.

It is interesting to see how attempts at composition fall short of the ancient authours. The discrepancies are quite patterned.

[For the purposes of composition, the complete lack of any Greek at all in the definitions of the forthcoming dictionary will probably result in the improper collocation of Greek words that happen to have the same glosses in English. ]

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:20 am
by Barry Hofstetter
mwh wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:πῶς ἀνέχεις, ὦ Μιχαήλ, ὑμᾶς τοὺς συγγραφεὶς; ἡ καμία φράσις ἡμῶν ἐνέχει συντακτικὰς παραβάσεις.
ἀλλ’ ὦ ἑκηβόλε σὺ φαίνει βουλόμενός τε καὶ δυνάμενος ἐπιδιδόναι ἐπὶ τὸ βέλτιον, διὸ ἐνίοτε διορθῶ (νυνὶ δ’ οὔ). ἐὰν μέντοι ἔτι πλείονα ποιεῖσθαι προκοπὴν βούλῃ κατὰ τὸ ἑλληνίζειν, δεήσει σε σπουδάζειν εἰς τὰ ὑπ’ αὐτῶν τῶν Ἑλλήνων γραφέντα μᾶλλον ἢ ὁμιλοῦντα τοῖς ἐνταῦθα ἠλιθίως παίζουσιν αὐτὸν συγγράφειν.
ἀληθῶς τε καὶ ὀρθῶς καὶ καλῶς διαλεχθέντα...

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:56 pm
by Markos
ἑκηβόλος wrote:...ἐκράτησεν αὐτῶν τὰ οὖρα ἵνα μὴ δάκνωσιν αὐτοῦ τοὺς δακτύλους.
οὕτως ὁ Κύριος κρατήσει τὴν τοῦ Διαβόλου οὐρὰν καὶ τὴν κεφαλὴν τούτου συντρίψει.

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:29 am
by ἑκηβόλος
Ἀνήκει, οἶμαι, τὰ τῶν ἀρχαίων γραφέντά τε καὶ τὰ τῶν νῦν ὁμιλοῦντα εἰς τὸ βέλτιον. ἐννοεῖτε γὰρ ὦ φίλοι, τὰ σημερινὰ ἀναγνώσματά μου. τὸ πρῶτον μὲν τῆς τῶν ἀποστόλων πράξεως κεφάλαιον ἑκατὸν καὶ δέκατον τὸ περὶ τῆς τοῦ ἀγγέλου ἐπικουρίας τοῦ ἐκφυγεῖν ἐκ τοῦ δεσμοφυλακίου, ἐπεῖτα τοῦ Εὐριπίδου τὰ περὶ τοῦ Πολυφήμου καὶ Ὀδυσσέως συμπινόντων στίχους κ', καὶ ἐπὶ τέλος τοῦ Λόγγου τὸ περὶ τῆς τοῦ Δαφνίδος ἀποπλύνσεως καὶ τοῦ θεᾶσθαι τὸ σῶμα αὐτοῦ τὴν Χλόην κεφάλαιον. Παρὰ τούτοις δὲ ἀνέγνων τοῦ bedwere στίχον κολοβὸν καὶ ἁπλοῦν, τὸ <<Σήμερον μέντοι αἱ νεφέλαι εὔκρατοί εἰσιν. Ὁρῶ γὰρ καὶ τὸν οὐρανόν.>>. συνομιλῶν οὖν τοῖς φίλοις τοῖς γραφοῦσιν τινά βλάβην κατεβλάφθην; οὐ γὰρ τελεῖα τὰ συγγραφήματα ἐκείνων ἀλλὰ οὐκ ἔχει τὶ δυσνόητον ἢ δυσβάστακτον. πῶς αἱ νεφέλαι εὔκρατοί εἰσιν, οὐκ οἶδα, ἀλλὰ ἔδοκεί μοί τι καταφατικὸν εἶναι.

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:21 pm
by mwh
There are basic everyday things you need to fix. E.g. in your first sentence here: position of τε (should directly follow τά), τὰ τῶν ἀρχαίων γραφέντα ungrammatical, τὰ τῶν νῦν ὁμιλοῦντα meaningless, and more.

Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:55 pm
by ἑκηβόλος
ναὶ μὰ τὸν Δία. καλῶς ἐποίησας βοηθήσας μοι. νήφων γὰρ οὐ γράφω ὀρθῶς.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:τὰ τῶν ἀρχαίων γραφέντά τε καὶ τὰ τῶν νῦν ὁμιλοῦντα
τά τε ὑπὸ τῶν ἀρχαίων γραφέντα καὶ τὰ ὑπὸ τῶν νῦν ὁμιλούντων (ἢ τὰ ὑπὸ τῶν νῦν διαλεχθέντα), but neither of those are beautiful.