Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

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Isaac Newton
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Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Isaac Newton » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:44 am

Here's one , for starters. I try to speak out the sentences that I'm thinking of first, in order to facilitate for internalization before putting them on a thread:
οἱ Φαρισαῖοι πάντοτε ἐνέπαιζον τὸν οινοπότην. Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν ὁ οἰνοπότης συνλαλων ἦν τινι Φαρισαίῳ. ὁ οἰνοπότης εἶπεν τῷ Φαρισαίῳ, “τί καταφρονεῖτε με ?”


Translation: The Pharisees were always mocking the drunkard. It so happened that one day the drunkard was conversing with a certain Pharisee. The drunkard said to the Pharisee, "why do you(pl) despise me";
I think there is nothing grammatically wrong with this short composition.

I've had someone fault me for placing the indefinite pronoun before Φαρισαίῳ. According to them the indefinite pronoun comes after the "noun which it is modifying." But I'm not convinced. I think they may be confusing the fact that the indefinite pronoun does not (or rarely) stand at the beginning of a sentence and/or a clause with the fact that it does not come before the noun it is modifying.

Here are some examples from the GNT which show τινι before the noun:

Τί ὑμῖν δοκεῖ; ἐὰν γένηταί τινι ἀνθρώπῳ ἑκατὸν πρόβατα καὶ πλανηθῇ ἓν ἐξ αὐτῶν, οὐχὶ ἀφήσει τὰ ἐνενήκοντα ἐννέα ἐπὶ τὰ ὄρη καὶ πορευθεὶς ζητεῖ τὸ πλανώμενον;
Matthew 8:12
Ἐγένετο δὲ ἡμέρας ἱκανὰς μεῖναι ἐν Ἰόππῃ παρά τινι Σίμωνι βυρσεῖ.
Acts 9:43
λέγων Κριτής τις ἦν ἔν τινι πόλει τὸν Θεὸν μὴ φοβούμενος καὶ ἄνθρωπον μὴ ἐντρεπόμενος.
Luke 8:2

etc.

This one is interesting since in one use the indefinite pronoun comes after the noun (Κριτής τις) but in the same sentence and context with the other use the indefinite pronoun comes before the noun (τινι πόλει).

So I don't think there is any real rule of grammar which prevents the indefinite pronoun from occurring before the noun. I don't even think that we can say that the indefinite pronoun "normally" stands after the noun. There are 16 examples for instance of the use of τινι in the GNT, and the majority (of the relevant examples) have τινι standing before the noun.

Any thoughts ?
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Isaac Newton » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:04 am

Here's another:
ἀνὴρ πρεσβύτης εἶχεν δύο υἱοὺς. Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν τοῦ σαββάτου, ἐβούλετο πειράσαι αὐτοὺς. καὶ συναγαγὼν αὐτοὺς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς “ὦ τέκνα μου, δεῦρο , καὶ ἀκούσατε τὸν λόγον μου. ἠγόρασα τὰς δύο κῑβωτούς γέμοντα χρυσίου ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν. οἱ δὲ παῖδές μου ἔθηκαν μίαν ἑκάστην ἐν τοῖς ἐκείνοις τοὺς οἴκους ὑμῶν. ἀλλά πρόσεχε σεαυτῷ μὴ βλέπειν ἔσωθεν τὴν κῑβωτόν .”

ἡ νὺξ αὕτη ὁ νεώτερος ἦλθεν κοιμηθῆναι ἐν ὑπερῴῳ αὐτοῦ πεπιστευκὼς ἐν τῷ αἴτημα τοῦ πατρός αὐτοῦ. ὁ δὲ πρεσβύτερος πειρασθείς ἠνέῳξέν τὴν κῑβωτόν. Καὶ ἰδοὺ μέλισσαι ἐξῆλθαν καὶ ἔπαισν αὐτὸν.


Τῇ ἐπαύριον ὁ πατήρ ἐκάλεσεν τοὺς δύο υἱοὺς αὐτοῦ. ὁ δὲ πρεσβύτερος μετὰ αἰσχύνης ἔστη πρὸς τὸν πατέρα ὅτι τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ εἱλκωμένος ἦν


English translation:

An old man had two sons. And it so happened that on one of the days of the Sabbath he resolved to test them. So having gathered them together, he said to them, “oh my children, come here, listen to what I have to say. I have purchased two chests full of gold for you. My servants have placed each one in your respective houses. But be careful to not look inside the box.”


That night the younger son went to sleep in his upper room, having believed in the command of his father. However the older son having been tempted , opened the box. And behold, bees came out ( from the box) and attacked him.


The next day, the father summoned his two sons. And the elder stood before the father in shame because his face was covered in sores.
Underlined above seems to me to be a little awkward. Maybe not. All corrections are wellcome.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by mwh » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:34 am

These are incredibly bad compositions, which have more elementary errors than I can count.

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Isaac Newton » Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:34 am

mwh wrote:These are incredibly bad compositions, which have more elementary errors than I can count.
Thanks for the criticism. Could you please point to a few of the errors which you see, so that I may learn from any mistakes and improve my composition skill as a resut ? Let's begin with the first one, from the OP:
οἱ Φαρισαῖοι πάντοτε ἐνέπαιζον τὸν οινοπότην. Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν ὁ οἰνοπότης συνλαλων ἦν τινι Φαρισαίῳ. ὁ οἰνοπότης εἶπεν τῷ Φαρισαίῳ, “τί καταφρονεῖτε με ?”

Translation: The Pharisees were always mocking the drunkard. It so happened that one day the drunkard was conversing with a certain Pharisee. The drunkard said to the Pharisee, "why do you(pl) despise me";
Thanks mwh.

By the way, all constructive discussion from everyone is welcome. Also I'm more concerned with any syntactical and grammatical errors in my compositions, not so much with that I may have accented a word wrongly or else used the English question mark (?) rather than the Koine (;), etc..
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Markos » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:17 pm

Hi, Isaac,

I like your sentences. They are comprehensible and fun. I look forward to reading more.
Isaac Newton wrote:οἱ Φαρισαῖοι πάντοτε ἐνέπαιζον τὸν οινοπότην. Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν ὁ οἰνοπότης συνλαλων ἦν τινι Φαρισαίῳ. ὁ οἰνοπότης εἶπεν τῷ Φαρισαίῳ, “τί καταφρονεῖτε με ?"
συλλαλῶν
ἐνέπαιζον τ οἰνοπότ
τί καταφρονεῖτέ μου?
maybe add a connective: ὁ δ' οἰνοπότης εἶπεν τῷ Φαρισαίῳ or καὶ ὁ οἰνοπότης εἶπεν τῷ Φαρισαίῳ,

ἔρρωσο ἐν Χριστῷ!
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Isaac Newton » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:01 pm

Markos wrote:Hi, Isaac,

I like your sentences. They are comprehensible and fun. I look forward to reading more.
Isaac Newton wrote:οἱ Φαρισαῖοι πάντοτε ἐνέπαιζον τὸν οινοπότην. Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν ὁ οἰνοπότης συνλαλων ἦν τινι Φαρισαίῳ. ὁ οἰνοπότης εἶπεν τῷ Φαρισαίῳ, “τί καταφρονεῖτε με ?"
συλλαλῶν
ἐνέπαιζον τ οἰνοπότ
τί καταφρονεῖτέ μου?
maybe add a connective: ὁ δ' οἰνοπότης εἶπεν τῷ Φαρισαίῳ or καὶ ὁ οἰνοπότης εἶπεν τῷ Φαρισαίῳ,


ἔρρωσο ἐν Χριστῷ!

Thank you Marcos. So in better Koine my sentence would look as follows --

οἱ Φαρισαῖοι πάντοτε ἐνέπαιζον τῷ οἰνοπότῃ. Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν ὁ οἰνοπότης συλλαλῶν ἦν τινι Φαρισαίῳ. ὁ δ' οἰνοπότης εἶπεν τῷ Φαρισαίῳ, “τί καταφρονεῖτε μου ?"
The corrections you suggested are honest and of a high caliber. It betrays the hand of someone who has been communicating (not just reading) in Koine for some time. When you have the time could you go through the second composition ? Please speak freely, even if every sentence needs correction I would not take offense.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by jeidsath » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:30 pm

I didn't like ἐγένετο followed by a finite verb. Maybe it's something that Semitic Koine authors do, but I would have expected ὅτε.

Notice that Luke 8:22 (which is very similar) has καί: Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν καὶ αὐτὸς ἐνέβη...

Something sticks about "συνλαλων ἦν"? Would a Greek have said that? I think that "τινι Φαρισαίῳ" would have to mean something like "someone, a Pharisee."
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Isaac Newton » Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:47 pm

jeidsath wrote:I didn't like ἐγένετο followed by a finite verb. Maybe it's something that Semitic Koine authors do, but I would have expected ὅτε.

Notice that Luke 8:22 (which is very similar) has καί: Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν καὶ αὐτὸς ἐνέβη...

Something sticks about "συνλαλων ἦν"? Would a Greek have said that? I think that "τινι Φαρισαίῳ" would have to mean something like "someone, a Pharisee."
Yes, Semitc koine authors tend to do that.

Mark 1:9 --
Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν ἐκείναις ταῖς ἡμέραις ἦλθεν Ἰησοῦς ἀπὸ Ναζαρὲτ τῆς Γαλιλαίας καὶ ἐβαπτίσθη εἰς τὸν Ἰορδάνην ὑπὸ Ἰωάνου.
Mark 2:23--
Καὶ ἐγένετο αὐτὸν ἐν τοῖς σάββασιν παραπορεύεσθαι διὰ τῶν σπορίμων, καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ ἤρξαντο ὁδὸν ποιεῖν τίλλοντες τοὺς στάχυας.


Luke 1:59--
Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ ὀγδόῃ ἦλθον περιτεμεῖν τὸ παιδίον, καὶ ἐκάλουν αὐτὸ ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι τοῦ πατρὸς αὐτοῦ Ζαχαρίαν.
Luke 2:1--
Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ἐκείναις ἐξῆλθεν δόγμα παρὰ Καίσαρος Αὐγούστου ἀπογράφεσθαι πᾶσαν τὴν οἰκουμένην·
Luke 2:6--
Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν τῷ εἶναι αὐτοὺς ἐκεῖ ἐπλήσθησαν αἱ ἡμέραι τοῦ τεκεῖν αὐτήν,
Luke 7:11--
Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ ἑξῆς ἐπορεύθη εἰς πόλιν καλουμένην Ναΐν, καὶ συνεπορεύοντο αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ καὶ ὄχλος πολύς.
Luke 9:18--
Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ εἶναι αὐτὸν προσευχόμενον κατὰ μόνας συνῆσαν αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταί, καὶ ἐπηρώτησεν αὐτοὺς λέγων Τίνα με οἱ ὄχλοι λέγουσιν εἶναι;
etc..

Thanks for the comments.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Isaac Newton » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:10 pm

Here's another composition:

Καὶ ἐγένετο ὅτε ἐκάθισεν προφήτης τοῦ θεοῦ ὑπὸ τὴν συκῆν παρὰ τὸ ὄρος τῶν ἐλαιῶν, ἀφύπνωσεν χαμαὶ. καὶ ἰδοὺ ἄφρων ἐλθὼν ὄπισθεν καὶ ἐπάταξεν τῆς κεφαλῆς αὐτοῦ ἐν λίθῳ . Εὐθέως ὁ προφήτης τοῦ θεοῦ ἐξυπνίσθη ἐκ τοῦ ὕπνου αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐπετίμησεν αὐτὸν λέγων Ἄφρων, καὶ ἵνα τί εδειρας μου / με ? Αὐτὸς δὲ ὁ Θεὸς σβεσαι σε.” Καὶ ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ὥρᾳ ἐξανηλώθη ἐν πυρὶ ἀπὸ κεφαλῆς ἕως ποδῶν αὐτοῦ


Translation: And it came to be that when a prophet of God sat under the fig tree near(by) the the Mount of Olives, he dozed off on the ground. And behold, a fool came from behind and struck his (the prophet’s) head with a stone. Immediately the prophet of God arose (was awakened ) from his slumber and he rebuked him saying “You fool, for what did you strike me ? May God himself snuff you out.” And in that same hour he was consumed by fire from (his) head to toe (feet).
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Markos » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:18 pm

χαῖρε φίλε Ἰσαακ!
Isaac Newton wrote:Thank you Marcos...When you have the time could you go through the second composition ?
ἠγόρασα τὰς δύο κῑβωτούς γέμοντα χρυσίου ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν.
the participle has to agree with κῑβωτούς, which is fem plural acc, thus γεμούσας. ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν is certainly not wrong, and I can imagine a Semitic Koine author writing this, but I think the bare dative would work here. I'm not sure that you need the article.
ἠγόρασα ὑμῖν δύο κιβωτοὺς γεμούσας χρυσίου.

οἱ δὲ παῖδές μου ἔθηκαν μίαν ἑκάστην ἐν τοῖς ἐκείνοις τοὺς οἴκους ὑμῶν.

οἱ δὲ παῖδές μου ἔθηκαν ἑκάστην ἐν τοῖς οἴκους ὑμῶν.

ἀλλά πρόσεχε σεαυτῷ μὴ βλέπειν ἔσωθεν τὴν κῑβωτόν.

Again, given the freedom of Semitic Koine Greek, I don't think this is exactly wrong, but I would expect the subjunctive. (and ἔσωθεν takes the genitive.)

ἀλλά πρόσεχε σεαυτῷ μὴ βλέπῃς ἔσωθεν τής κιβωτοῦ.

ἡ νὺξ αὕτη ὁ νεώτερος ἦλθεν κοιμηθῆναι ἐν ὑπερῴῳ αὐτοῦ πεπιστευκὼς ἐν τῷ αἴτημα τοῦ πατρός αὐτοῦ.

ταύτῃ τῇ νυκτὶ ὁ νεώτερος...

For Koine Semitic Greek, ἦλθεν κοιμηθῆναι is not wrong (although obviously there are more elegant ways to say this, in say, Attic.) But I think that adding the article makes the purpose clause a little more clear: ἦλθεν τοῦ κοιμηθῆναι.

ἐν τῷ αἴτημα --> ἐν τῷ αἰτήματι

ὁ δὲ πρεσβύτερος μετὰ αἰσχύνης ἔστη πρὸς τὸν πατέρα ὅτι τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ εἱλκωμένος ἦν.

ὁ δὲ πρεσβύτερος μετὰ αἰσχύνης ἔστη πρὸς τὸν πατέρα ὅτι τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ εἱλκωμένον ἦν.
Isaac Newton wrote:Please speak freely, even if every sentence needs correction I would not take offense.
You shouldn't take offense. Writing Greek is hard. There are a million places where you can go wrong. Randal Buth once said that in order to learn a language you have to make 50,000 mistakes. (And I am sure that I have in turn made mistakes in "correcting" your Greek. :lol: )

But, again, your Greek is robust and creative and basically sound. I really like the way you have sought to emulate a Semitic Koine style. And you know your GNT very well. I would not therefore worry too much about the mistakes. Just continue to write early and often. And read Greek early and often. From reading, you will notice your mistakes, and as you say that leads to better internalization of the language.

I like your third comp too. Keep it up!
jeidsath wrote:I didn't like ἐγένετο followed by a finite verb. Maybe it's something that Semitic Koine authors do, but I would have expected ὅτε.
As Isaac points out, this Semitism can take an infinitive, a finite verb, or καί plus a finite verb. I think it is cool that Isaac is actually trying to compose original product using this construction. He may be the first to do so. So, there is lots of room for experimentation here.
jeidsath wrote:Something sticks about "συνλαλων ἦν"? Would a Greek have said that?
Yes. Very common in, for example Mark. "periphrastic imperfect" or something, is the metalanguage.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Isaac Newton » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:06 am

Markos wrote:χαῖρε φίλε Ἰσαακ!
Isaac Newton wrote:Thank you Marcos...When you have the time could you go through the second composition ?
ἠγόρασα τὰς δύο κῑβωτούς γέμοντα χρυσίου ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν.
the participle has to agree with κῑβωτούς, which is fem plural acc, thus γεμούσας. ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν is certainly not wrong, and I can imagine a Semitic Koine author writing this, but I think the bare dative would work here. I'm not sure that you need the article.
ἠγόρασα ὑμῖν δύο κιβωτοὺς γεμούσας χρυσίου.

οἱ δὲ παῖδές μου ἔθηκαν μίαν ἑκάστην ἐν τοῖς ἐκείνοις τοὺς οἴκους ὑμῶν.

οἱ δὲ παῖδές μου ἔθηκαν ἑκάστην ἐν τοῖς οἴκους ὑμῶν.

ἀλλά πρόσεχε σεαυτῷ μὴ βλέπειν ἔσωθεν τὴν κῑβωτόν.

Again, given the freedom of Semitic Koine Greek, I don't think this is exactly wrong, but I would expect the subjunctive. (and ἔσωθεν takes the genitive.)

ἀλλά πρόσεχε σεαυτῷ μὴ βλέπῃς ἔσωθεν τής κιβωτοῦ.

ἡ νὺξ αὕτη ὁ νεώτερος ἦλθεν κοιμηθῆναι ἐν ὑπερῴῳ αὐτοῦ πεπιστευκὼς ἐν τῷ αἴτημα τοῦ πατρός αὐτοῦ.

ταύτῃ τῇ νυκτὶ ὁ νεώτερος...

For Koine Semitic Greek, ἦλθεν κοιμηθῆναι is not wrong (although obviously there are more elegant ways to say this, in say, Attic.) But I think that adding the article makes the purpose clause a little more clear: ἦλθεν τοῦ κοιμηθῆναι.

ἐν τῷ αἴτημα --> ἐν τῷ αἰτήματι

ὁ δὲ πρεσβύτερος μετὰ αἰσχύνης ἔστη πρὸς τὸν πατέρα ὅτι τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ εἱλκωμένος ἦν.

ὁ δὲ πρεσβύτερος μετὰ αἰσχύνης ἔστη πρὸς τὸν πατέρα ὅτι τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ εἱλκωμένον ἦν.
Isaac Newton wrote:Please speak freely, even if every sentence needs correction I would not take offense.
You shouldn't take offense. Writing Greek is hard. There are a million places where you can go wrong. Randal Buth once said that in order to learn a language you have to make 50,000 mistakes. (And I am sure that I have in turn made mistakes in "correcting" your Greek. :lol: )

But, again, your Greek is robust and creative and basically sound. I really like the way you have sought to emulate a Semitic Koine style. And you know your GNT very well. I would not therefore worry too much about the mistakes. Just continue to write early and often. And read Greek early and often. From reading, you will notice your mistakes, and as you say that leads to better internalization of the language.

I like your third comp too. Keep it up!
jeidsath wrote:I didn't like ἐγένετο followed by a finite verb. Maybe it's something that Semitic Koine authors do, but I would have expected ὅτε.
As Isaac points out, this Semitism can take an infinitive, a finite verb, or καί plus a finite verb. I think it is cool that Isaac is actually trying to compose original product using this construction. He may be the first to do so. So, there is lots of room for experimentation here.
jeidsath wrote:Something sticks about "συνλαλων ἦν"? Would a Greek have said that?
Yes. Very common in, for example Mark. "periphrastic imperfect" or something, is the metalanguage.
Thanks for taking the time Marcos. I think Mr. Randall Booth has a point (regarding the 50 000 mistakes). The reason children learn a new language faster than most adults is because they're not easily shamed. But as adults, we sometimes spend too much time thinking about how others would perceive us if we penned a less than perfect sentence. As a result, some of us end up developing an "all or nothing" mentality in composition or communication in Koine -- we say to ourselves, "either I write a perfect set of sentences on a public forum or I'm not writing at all because I don't want to look like a fool." This is fatal for one's language development, since improvement in communication comes about as a result of learning from our own errors , errors which are then accuractly corrected by another or else discovered by ourselves later on .

A child does not worry about whether a sentence which they speak is 100% grammatically sound; they just want to express themselves as best that they can. So a five year old may "instinctively" say , “I and Dad goed to the store to buy traps to catch the mouses.” The sentence is hardly perfect, but it is certainly legible and we can already see that the foundations are there for the child to have his way with the language, over time. An adult learning a new language should adopt the same attitude as children doing the same. But I digress.

Your corrections are very sensible . So following is my write-up with your suggestions:

ἀνὴρ πρεσβύτης εἶχεν δύο υἱοὺς. Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν τοῦ σαββάτου, ἐβούλετο πειράσαι αὐτοὺς. καὶ συναγαγὼν αὐτοὺς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς “ὦ τέκνα μου, δεῦρο , καὶ ἀκούσατε τὸν λόγον μου. ἠγόρασα ὑμῖν δύο κιβωτοὺς γεμούσας χρυσίου. οἱ δὲ παῖδές μου ἔθηκαν μίαν ἐν τοῖς οἴκους ὑμῶν. ἀλλά πρόσεχε σεαυτῷ μὴ βλέπῃς ἔσωθεν τὴν κῑβωτόν .”

ταύτῃ τῇ νυκτὶ ὁ νεώτερος ἦλθεν τοῦ κοιμηθῆναι ἐν ὑπερῴῳ αὐτοῦ πεπιστευκὼς ἐν τῷ αἰτήματι τοῦ πατρός αὐτοῦ. ὁ δὲ πρεσβύτερος πειρασθείς ἠνέῳξέν τὴν κῑβωτόν. Καὶ ἰδοὺ μέλισσαι ἐξῆλθαν καὶ ἔπαισαν αὐτὸν.

Τῇ ἐπαύριον ὁ πατήρ ἐκάλεσεν τοὺς δύο υἱοὺς αὐτοῦ. ὁ δὲ πρεσβύτερος μετὰ αἰσχύνης ἔστη πρὸς τὸν πατέρα ὅτι τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ εἱλκωμένον ἦν

One point concerning γέμοντα vs γεμούσας. When I was writing out this sentence, I was naturally thinking of κιβωτός as a thing, and that is why without thinking about the grammatical gender of the noun I used a neuter participle to modify it instead of the feminine. I don't want to press the issue but I think γέμοντα would be acceptable if we invoke ad sensum ?
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Isaac Newton » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:43 pm

Here’s how someone writing in Koine in the spirit of apostle John might encourage a Church which they were shepherding :

Παιδία, ἠκούσατε ὅτι ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας ταχύ ἔρχεται εἰς τὸν κόσμον . Οὗτος ὅταν ἔλθῃ πλανήσεἰ τὸν ὅλον τὸν κόσμον . λαλήσει ψευδῆ κατά τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ κατά τῶν ἁγίων αὐτοῦ. ἀλλά μὴ φοβηθῆτε . ὅτι ὁ πατήρ ἡμῶν ἐστιν πάντων μεῖζόν. ἀποστελεῖ χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν πάλιν ἀπολέσαι αὐτόν ὑπό πυρί. ἀγαπητοὶ, μὴ πλανᾶσθε . οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας ἔρχεται ἐν δυνάμει τοῦ ὄφεως τοῦ ἀρχαίου ? Οὗτος ἔκπαλαι ἀπεκαλύφθη ὑπό τοῦ ἀποστόλου Ἰωάννου .

Translation:
Children, you have heard that the man of sin is coming soon into the World. This one, when he comes will deceive the whole world. He will speak great lies against God and against His Saints. But do not be afraid! Because our Father is greater than all. He will send Jesus Christ again to destroy him with fire. Beloved, do not be deceived. Do you not know that the man of sin comes in the power of the Ancient Serpent ? This one was revealed by apostle John long ago.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:41 pm

They are basically understandable. You been successful in using Greek to communicate you perhaps 95% of your meaning. There are only a few places where I was lost for meaning, other places, I think you have a meaning, but perhaps not the one you want, eg.
Isaac Newton wrote: ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν
Translation: one day
My guess was that this meant, "at 7am".
I think there is nothing grammatically wrong with this short composition.
There is always something wrong with compositions. Rules are formed both negatively and positively - as in "that can't go with that", besides the "that has to go with that" rules. The usual feeling is we've made the best of several inadequate choices.
τινι before the noun:
I take τις in these cases to function as a place marker - like a formalised cough that obscures what we say in English speech habit or a null adjective come demonstrative that acknowledges that the audience expects some more information - where something is required. Like saying, "that's all the information you're going to get", or "need for this story".

English idioms may be understood differently:
ἦλθεν κοιμηθῆναι
Did he need to journey far?
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:16 am

Isaac Newton wrote:Here's another:
ἀνὴρ πρεσβύτης εἶχεν δύο υἱοὺς. Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν τοῦ σαββάτου, ἐβούλετο πειράσαι αὐτοὺς. καὶ συναγαγὼν αὐτοὺς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς “ὦ τέκνα μου, δεῦρο , καὶ ἀκούσατε τὸν λόγον μου. ἠγόρασα τὰς δύο κῑβωτούς γέμοντα χρυσίου ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν. οἱ δὲ παῖδές μου ἔθηκαν μίαν ἑκάστην ἐν τοῖς ἐκείνοις τοὺς οἴκους ὑμῶν. ἀλλά πρόσεχε σεαυτῷ μὴ βλέπειν ἔσωθεν τὴν κῑβωτόν .”

ἡ νὺξ αὕτη ὁ νεώτερος ἦλθεν κοιμηθῆναι ἐν ὑπερῴῳ αὐτοῦ πεπιστευκὼς ἐν τῷ αἴτημα τοῦ πατρός αὐτοῦ. ὁ δὲ πρεσβύτερος πειρασθείς ἠνέῳξέν τὴν κῑβωτόν. Καὶ ἰδοὺ μέλισσαι ἐξῆλθαν καὶ ἔπαισν αὐτὸν.


Τῇ ἐπαύριον ὁ πατήρ ἐκάλεσεν τοὺς δύο υἱοὺς αὐτοῦ. ὁ δὲ πρεσβύτερος μετὰ αἰσχύνης ἔστη πρὸς τὸν πατέρα ὅτι τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ εἱλκωμένος ἦν
ἄφες ἐρωτήσω τι.
Τί ἐξεπείρασεν ὁ πατὴρ τοὺς δύο;
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Isaac Newton » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:28 am

Hi ἑκηβόλος
ἑκηβόλος wrote:They are basically understandable. You been successful in using Greek to communicate you perhaps 95% of your meaning. There are only a few places where I was lost for meaning, other places, I think you have a meaning, but perhaps not the one you want, eg.
Isaac Newton wrote: ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν
Translation: one day
My guess was that this meant, "at 7am".
I think there is nothing grammatically wrong with this short composition.
There is always something wrong with compositions. Rules are formed both negatively and positively - as in "that can't go with that", besides the "that has to go with that" rules. The usual feeling is we've made the best of several inadequate choices.
τινι before the noun:
I take τις in these cases to function as a place marker - like a formalised cough that obscures what we say in English speech habit or a null adjective come demonstrative that acknowledges that the audience expects some more information - where something is required. Like saying, "that's all the information you're going to get", or "need for this story".

English idioms may be understood differently:
ἦλθεν κοιμηθῆναι
Did he need to journey far?
Thanks for your thoughts....ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν is an expression I picked up from apostle Luke. He uses it multiple times:
Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν καὶ αὐτὸς ἦν διδάσκων, καὶ ἦσαν καθήμενοι Φαρισαῖοι καὶ νομοδιδάσκαλοι οἳ ἦσαν ἐληλυθότες ἐκ πάσης κώμης τῆς Γαλιλαίας καὶ Ἰουδαίας καὶ Ἱερουσαλήμ· καὶ δύναμις Κυρίου ἦν εἰς τὸ ἰᾶσθαι αὐτόν.
Luke 5:17
Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν διδάσκοντος αὐτοῦ τὸν λαὸν ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ καὶ εὐαγγελιζομένου ἐπέστησαν οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς καὶ οἱ γραμματεῖς σὺν τοῖς πρεσβυτέροις,
Luke 20:1
Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν καὶ αὐτὸς ἐνέβη εἰς πλοῖον καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς Διέλθωμεν εἰς τὸ πέραν τῆς λίμνης· καὶ ἀνήχθησαν.
Luke 8:22

It means something similar to our English "one day.." and with Ἐγένετο we get something like our English "One day it so happened that..."


Berean Literal Bible translates it quite literally, so at Luke 8:22 we get the following for Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν:
And it came to pass, on one of the days also, He with His disciples entered into a boat, and He said to them, "Let us pass over to the other side of the lake." And they launched out.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Isaac Newton » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:07 am

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Isaac Newton wrote:Here's another:
ἀνὴρ πρεσβύτης εἶχεν δύο υἱοὺς. Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν τοῦ σαββάτου, ἐβούλετο πειράσαι αὐτοὺς. καὶ συναγαγὼν αὐτοὺς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς “ὦ τέκνα μου, δεῦρο , καὶ ἀκούσατε τὸν λόγον μου. ἠγόρασα τὰς δύο κῑβωτούς γέμοντα χρυσίου ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν. οἱ δὲ παῖδές μου ἔθηκαν μίαν ἑκάστην ἐν τοῖς ἐκείνοις τοὺς οἴκους ὑμῶν. ἀλλά πρόσεχε σεαυτῷ μὴ βλέπειν ἔσωθεν τὴν κῑβωτόν .”

ἡ νὺξ αὕτη ὁ νεώτερος ἦλθεν κοιμηθῆναι ἐν ὑπερῴῳ αὐτοῦ πεπιστευκὼς ἐν τῷ αἴτημα τοῦ πατρός αὐτοῦ. ὁ δὲ πρεσβύτερος πειρασθείς ἠνέῳξέν τὴν κῑβωτόν. Καὶ ἰδοὺ μέλισσαι ἐξῆλθαν καὶ ἔπαισν αὐτὸν.


Τῇ ἐπαύριον ὁ πατήρ ἐκάλεσεν τοὺς δύο υἱοὺς αὐτοῦ. ὁ δὲ πρεσβύτερος μετὰ αἰσχύνης ἔστη πρὸς τὸν πατέρα ὅτι τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ εἱλκωμένος ἦν
ἄφες ἐρωτήσω τι.
Τί ἐξεπείρασεν ὁ πατὴρ τοὺς δύο;
εἰ τὸν λόγον αὐτοῦ τιμησουσιν.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Markos » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:52 pm

Μᾶρκος τῷ Ἰσαακ χαίρειν πλεῖστον ἐν Κυρίῳ.
Isaac Newton wrote:Παιδία, ἠκούσατε ὅτι ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας ταχύ ἔρχεται εἰς τὸν κόσμον . Οὗτος ὅταν ἔλθῃ πλανήσεἰ τὸν ὅλον τὸν κόσμον . λαλήσει ψευδῆ κατά τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ κατά τῶν ἁγίων αὐτοῦ. ἀλλά μὴ φοβηθῆτε . ὅτι ὁ πατήρ ἡμῶν ἐστιν πάντων μεῖζόν. ἀποστελεῖ χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν πάλιν ἀπολέσαι αὐτόν ὑπό πυρί. ἀγαπητοὶ, μὴ πλανᾶσθε . οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας ἔρχεται ἐν δυνάμει τοῦ ὄφεως τοῦ ἀρχαίου ? Οὗτος ἔκπαλαι ἀπεκαλύφθη ὑπό τοῦ ἀποστόλου Ἰωάννου .
ἄλλην καλὴν γραφὴν πεποίηκας σύγε.
Οὗτος ὅταν ἔλθῃ πλανήσεἰ τὸν ὅλον τὸν κόσμον.
ὃλος, as you may know, is a funny adjective, at least as it is used in the GNT. We find ὅλον τὸν κόσμον and τόν κόσμον ὅλον but not τὸν ὅλον κόσμον or τὸν κόσμον τὸν ὄλον. τὸν ὅλον τὸν κόσμον would not, I think be used, for the same reason you would not use τὸν κακὸν τὸν κόσμον. (if any of this is confusing just ignore it. I may be wrong about some of this.)
ὅτι ὁ πατήρ ἡμῶν ἐστιν πάντων μεῖζόν.
μείζων (unless construction ad sensum ὁ πατήρ = τὸ πνεῦμα :D :D :D
ἀποστελεῖ χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν πάλιν ἀπολέσαι αὐτόν ὑπό πυρί.
ἐν πυρὶ (or maybe, if the fire is perceived somewhat as a person) ὑπὸ πυρός
ἑκηβόλος wrote:ἄφες ἐρωτήσω τι.
Τί ἐξεπείρασεν ὁ πατὴρ τοὺς δύο;
Ισαακ wrote:εἰ τὸν λόγον αὐτοῦ τιμησουσιν.
τῷ Ἰσαακ ὁμολογῶ. ἐὰν πίστιν οἱ υἰοὶ ἔχωσι, τοῦτο ὀ πάτηρ θέλει γνῶναι.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:28 am

πηλίκαι καὶ ποταπαὶ αἱ κιβωτοί; πῶς μὲν τὸ μῆκος αὐτῶν, ἢ τὸ ὔψος, κ.τ.λ.; ἐκ δὲ τινός ὕλης κατειργάσθησαν; πόσα χρυσία δὲ ἐνεῖχον ἄν; καὶ ἦσαν αἱ δύο ἴσαι ἢ τί διεκρίθησαν μεταξὺ αὐτῶν;

καὶ πῶς μὴ ἐπνίγοντο αἱ μέλισσαὶ ἄν;
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Isaac Newton » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:52 am

Markos wrote:Μᾶρκος τῷ Ἰσαακ χαίρειν πλεῖστον ἐν Κυρίῳ.
Isaac Newton wrote:Παιδία, ἠκούσατε ὅτι ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας ταχύ ἔρχεται εἰς τὸν κόσμον . Οὗτος ὅταν ἔλθῃ πλανήσεἰ τὸν ὅλον τὸν κόσμον . λαλήσει ψευδῆ κατά τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ κατά τῶν ἁγίων αὐτοῦ. ἀλλά μὴ φοβηθῆτε . ὅτι ὁ πατήρ ἡμῶν ἐστιν πάντων μεῖζόν. ἀποστελεῖ χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν πάλιν ἀπολέσαι αὐτόν ὑπό πυρί. ἀγαπητοὶ, μὴ πλανᾶσθε . οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας ἔρχεται ἐν δυνάμει τοῦ ὄφεως τοῦ ἀρχαίου ? Οὗτος ἔκπαλαι ἀπεκαλύφθη ὑπό τοῦ ἀποστόλου Ἰωάννου .
ἄλλην καλὴν γραφὴν πεποίηκας σύγε.
Οὗτος ὅταν ἔλθῃ πλανήσεἰ τὸν ὅλον τὸν κόσμον.
ὃλος, as you may know, is a funny adjective, at least as it is used in the GNT. We find ὅλον τὸν κόσμον and τόν κόσμον ὅλον but not τὸν ὅλον κόσμον or τὸν κόσμον τὸν ὄλον. τὸν ὅλον τὸν κόσμον would not, I think be used, for the same reason you would not use τὸν κακὸν τὸν κόσμον. (if any of this is confusing just ignore it. I may be wrong about some of this.)
ὅτι ὁ πατήρ ἡμῶν ἐστιν πάντων μεῖζόν.
μείζων (unless construction ad sensum ὁ πατήρ = τὸ πνεῦμα :D :D :D
ἀποστελεῖ χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν πάλιν ἀπολέσαι αὐτόν ὑπό πυρί.
ἐν πυρὶ (or maybe, if the fire is perceived somewhat as a person) ὑπὸ πυρός
ἑκηβόλος wrote:ἄφες ἐρωτήσω τι.
Τί ἐξεπείρασεν ὁ πατὴρ τοὺς δύο;
Ισαακ wrote:εἰ τὸν λόγον αὐτοῦ τιμησουσιν.
τῷ Ἰσαακ ὁμολογῶ. ἐὰν πίστιν οἱ υἰοὶ ἔχωσι, τοῦτο ὀ πάτηρ θέλει γνῶναι.
Definitely meant μείζων, but spelled it as μεῖζόν ( both forms sound identical ofcourse). This is where my lack of experience with written Koine begins to show.

Valuable comments and suggestions, as usual.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Markos » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:56 am

ἑκηβόλος wrote:καὶ πῶς μὴ ἐπνίγοντο αἱ μέλισσαὶ ἄν;
νομίζω ὅτι ὀπαὶ μικραὶ ἐν τοῖν κιβωτοῖν τὰς μελίσσας ἔσῳσαν.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:59 am

Markos wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:καὶ πῶς μὴ ἐπνίγοντο αἱ μέλισσαὶ ἄν;
νομίζω ὅτι ὀπαὶ μικραὶ ἐν τοῖν κιβωτοῖν τὰς μελίσσας ἔσῳσαν.
Ἐὰν ἔχει ἡ κιβωτὸς ὀπὰς, ἠκούσθη τὰ ἔντομα ἄν...

νυκτὸς βραδὺ διαγενομένης ἠγρύπνησεν ὁ ἀδελφὸς ἐκεῖνος. Πρῶτον μὲν κατεκλίνη πρηνὴς ἐλλογῶν πόσα ἐνέχειν τὸν θησαυρὸν, ἐπεῖτα δὲ ὕπτιος τὰ τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ. τέλος δὲ θωυξάσων τῶν μελιττῶν ἐμαινετο καὶ ἀνασταθεὶς προσὲδραμεν πρὸς τὴν θήκην καὶ ἀνέῳγεν αὐτήν.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Isaac Newton » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:05 pm

Here is another small composition :

ἄνθρωπός τις πλούσιος ἦν, ὃς εἶχεν δοῦλον λεγόμενον Ἰωάννην. Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν ὁ πλούσιος ἐνέπαιζον Ἰωάννην καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ, “Ῥακά, ὁ θεός μισεῖ σε ὅτι ἐποίησεν σε εἶναι δοῦλον.”

καὶ παραχρῆμα ἔτι λαλοῦντος , ἰδοὺ ἄγγελος Κυρίου ὤφθη καὶ ἐστάθη παρά Ἰωάννῃ, καὶ εἶπεν τῷ πλουσίῳ, τί δὲ κατακαυχᾶσαι τῷ ἄλλῳ ? ἤδη εἶ ὑπὸ κρίσιν, ὅτι ἐγένου πλούσιος ἐν δόλῳ.

ἀλλά ἐποίησεν ὁ θεός Ἰωάννην πρὸς καιρὸν μικρὸν εἶναι δοῦλον σοῦ ἵνα γνῷ τὴν δοκιμὴν αὐτοῦ, εἰ πιστός ἐστιν. καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐδούλευσεν σοι ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ τοσαῦτα ἔτη. διὰ τοῦτο, ὁ θεός ἀγαπᾷ αὐτὸν .


Translation: There was a certain rich man who had a slave called John. It so happened that one day he mocked John and said to him, “ Idiot, God hates you because he has made you to be a slave..”

And while he was yet speaking thus , behold an angel of the Lord appeared and stood by John, and he said to the rich man, “why do you boast against another man?” Already you are under judgment, because you became rich by deceit.

But God made John to be your servant for a little while in order that he might put him to the test, to see if he is faithful. And behold he has served you in righteousness all these years. Therefore, God loves him .
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:23 pm

Isaac Newton wrote:Hi ἑκηβόλος
Thanks for your thoughts....
:-)
Isaac Newton wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Isaac Newton wrote: ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν
Translation: one day
My guess was that this meant, "at 7am".

ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν is an expression I picked up from apostle Luke.
Lumping chunks is a composition strategy. There are composition phrase books with chunks of Greek from different authours that can be lumped together into one's own writing to produce compositions. Their strength is that they are examples of idiomatic Greek, while their weakness is that they give the impression that all the phrases are set phrases.

The only other text where I can find the phrase ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν is John of Damascus, Vita Barlaam et Joasaph. You?

For a structurally similar phrase, in the Library, Apollodorus says of Hercules returning from killing the Nemean Lion,
Apollodorus, Library, 2.5 wrote:καταλαβὼν δὲ τὸν Μόλορχον ἐν τῇ τελευταίᾳ τῶν ἡμερῶν ὡς νεκρῷ μέλλοντα τὸ ἱερεῖον ἐναγίζειν, σωτῆρι θύσας Διὶ ἦγεν εἰς Μυκήνας τὸν λέοντα.
Hercules said to wait for 30 days, so the "on the τελευταίᾳ (day)" would be on the last day of a set period of time.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:00 pm

Isaac Newton wrote:Here is another small composition :
"... ἐποίησεν σε εἶναι δοῦλον.”

ἐστάθη

Translation: ... he has made you to be a slave.”

stood
The idiomatic expression of causation is something that needs practice in a new language.

There are verbs in the δοῦλος family of words to express causation. καταδουλόω implies "to somebody", which in this context of master-slave and of your theme of καταφρονεῖν is the master - the one speaking. If you were to write out explicitly who he was enslaved to, then δουλόω might be better.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Markos » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:28 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Isaac Newton wrote:
"... ἐποίησεν σε εἶναι δοῦλον.”
The idiomatic expression of causation is something that needs practice in a new language.

There are verbs in the δοῦλος family of words to express causation. καταδουλόω implies "to somebody", which in this context of master-slave and of your theme of καταφρονεῖν is the master - the one speaking. If you were to write out explicitly who he was enslaved to, then δουλόω might be better.
I like it:
In a parallel universe, Isaac Newton with the help of ἑκηβόλος, wrote:ἀλλ' ἐδούλωσέ σοι ὁ θεὸς Ἰωάννην πρὸς καιρὸν μικρὸν ἵνα γνῷ τὴν δοκιμὴν αὐτοῦ, εἰ πιστός ἐστιν.
@Isaac: Note that ἐμπαίζω (normally) takes the dative and that κατακαυχάομαι (normally) takes the genitive.

A minor, minor quibble:
Isaac Newton wrote:ὁ θεός ἀγαπᾷ αὐτὸν.
ὁ θεὸς ἀγαπᾷ αὐτόν.

But again, more to the point, I really like your comp, both the form and the meaning.

I'd like to hear you read one of your pieces out loud (slowly please!) posting the link here.

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Isaac Newton » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:05 am

Markos,

What you suggested flows very elegantly indeed:
ἀλλ' ἐδούλωσέ σοι ὁ θεὸς Ἰωάννην πρὸς καιρὸν μικρὸν ἵνα γνῷ τὴν δοκιμὴν αὐτοῦ, εἰ πιστός ἐστιν.
---
I'd like to hear you read one of your pieces out loud (slowly please!) posting the link here.
Certainly. Here's my reading of "the old man and his two sons" (corrected for errors using your suggestions):

https://archive.org/details/NewRecording168_201802
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:48 am

ἑκηβόλος wrote:The idiomatic expression of causation is something that needs practice in a new language.
Isaac Newton wrote:
Markos wrote:
In a parallel universe, Isaac Newton with the help of ἑκηβόλος, wrote:ἐδούλωσέ σοι ὁ θεὸς Ἰωάννην
Markos,
What you suggested flows very elegantly indeed:
An elegant elephant perhaps.

The syntactic pattern is too heavy for that verb. This δουλόω contains in itself both an actual meaning and the omicron suffixed causal element. Adding past tense, perfective aspect, number, person, indirect object, subject and direct object makes a total of 9 morphosyntactic elements. 5-7 elements is more normal.

To be more idiomatic in your use of that type of causative, you could use a middle-passive form to reduce the valence (syntatical elements around the verb) by 1, OR you could split the meaning, by using a preceding phrase to describe a context from which the elements of meaning that you want to associate with ἐδούλωσέ could be implied.

The middle-passive valence reduction strategy might result in ἐδούλουτο αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰωάννης. Depending whether God is meant personally or the natural force of fate, ὑπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ could be added or not. The context creating splitting strategy might result in something like ἐποίησεν ὁ Ἰωάννης πᾶν τὸ διαταχθὲν (αὐτῷ), διότι ἐδούλωσε αὐτὸν ὁ θεὸς
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Isaac Newton » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:32 am

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
The middle-passive valence reduction strategy might result in ἐδούλουτο αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰωάννης. Depending whether God is meant personally or the natural force of fate, ὑπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ could be added or not. The context creating splitting strategy might result in something like ἐποίησεν ὁ Ἰωάννης πᾶν τὸ διαταχθὲν (αὐτῷ), διότι ἐδούλωσε αὐτὸν ὁ θεὸς
Thanks ἑκηβόλος, that is high register Greek indeed . Would a "commoner," that is, a relatively uneducated Koine speaking person such as a shepherd, a fisherman, a farmer etc. of the NT era have easily understood such a statement if it was repeated to him ?
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:14 pm

Unless somebody is trying to mock somebody, or to socially exclude them, there is generally an assumption that what people are saying makes sense. Even if it doesn’t make sense to the listener, it is assumed that it made sense to the speaker. Your question seems to suggest that there is a binary choice between understandimg and not understanding the thought. That binary logic is probably not the best way to conceptualise the question of understandability.

Beyond the question of whether (or how much of) the utterance was understood, there is the much more interesting question of what was understood. In your composition, your calque of "went to sleep" was unlikely to have been understood by a period language user as meaning κατακλίνω. They would more likely think that the person travelled some distance to be able to sleep (undisturbed perhaps). For these two sentences ἐποίησεν ὁ Ἰωάννης πᾶν τὸ διαταχθὲν (αὐτῷ), διότι ἐδούλωσε αὐτὸν ὁ θεὸς.

If by register you mean a type of speech that conforms to the formal constraints of a partucular genre, then which genre are we discussing? The split sentence structure way of writing Greek is a cross-genre feature and is not characteristic of the language that can be used to measure the degree of conformity to genre.

As for those with either no (or only a rudimentary) education, they, as we do, might understand from the first phrase that John was not acting according to choice. For the second phrase, understanding might depend on their conceptualise how or in what way a god makes a man become a slave. Perhaps it might be taken as "devotee", perhaps that he was owned by the temple. Fatalistic and voluntary social stratification might be being expressed in Philipians 2:6-11. The relationship between the two phrases is expressed implicitly as well as explicitly (using grammar).
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Isaac Newton » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:08 pm

Thanks for your thoughts ἑκηβόλος. Please continue with your contributions in this thread. You make some provocative points.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Markos » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:21 pm

Isaac Newton wrote:Here's my reading of "the old man and his two sons" (corrected for errors using your suggestions):

https://archive.org/details/NewRecording168_201802
Very well done. 1. It is easy to understand. 2. It is pleasant on the ears. 3. It's probably pretty close to how a Semitic Koine speaker would have pronounced it. There is not much more one can expect from a Greek reading.
Markos wrote:ἀλλ' ἐδούλωσέ σοι ὁ θεὸς Ἰωάννην.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:The syntactic pattern is too heavy for that verb.
Can you explain this a bit. What do you mean by "heavy?"
Isaac Newton wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:The context creating splitting strategy might result in something like ἐποίησεν ὁ Ἰωάννης πᾶν τὸ διαταχθὲν (αὐτῷ), διότι ἐδούλωσε αὐτὸν ὁ θεὸς
Thanks ἑκηβόλος, that is high register Greek indeed . Would a "commoner," that is, a relatively uneducated Koine speaking person such as a shepherd, a fisherman, a farmer etc. of the NT era have easily understood such a statement if it was repeated to him ?
That is a good question as far as it goes, but keep this in mind: You and ἑκηβόλος have very different writing styles. I love them both because reading both of them improves my overall reading fluency in Ancient Greek. Having ἑκηβόλος paraphrase your simple Semitic-Koine into a more Attic like register is very helpful to me pedagogically, regardless of any other considerations.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:καὶ πῶς μὴ ἐπνίγοντο αἱ μέλισσαὶ ἄν;
Μᾶρκος wrote:νομίζω ὅτι ὀπαὶ μικραὶ ἐν τοῖν κιβωτοῖν τὰς μελίσσας ἔσῳσαν.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:Ἐὰν ἔχει ἡ κιβωτὸς ὀπὰς, ἠκούσθη τὰ ἔντομα ἄν...
ἀληθὴ λέγεις. (ἀλλὰ νομίζω ὅτι ἔδει σε γράψαι τὸ Ἐὰν εἶχεν ἡ κιβωτὸς ὀπὰς...) νῦν οὖν τοῦτο λέγει. θαυμασίως Θεὸς τὰς μελίσσας ἔσῳσε.
Last edited by Markos on Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by mwh » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:28 pm

εαν εχει, “corrected” to εαν ειχεν. You are both forgetting that with εαν the subjunctive is used. And did none of you see anything amiss with πῶς μὴ ἐπνίγοντο αἱ μέλισσαὶ ἄν;? Don't you think you should have "internalized" these things by now?

Just popping in, and now I’ll as quickly pop back out.

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:43 am

mwh wrote:Don't you think you should have "internalized" these things by now?
Markos wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:Ἐὰν ἔχει ἡ κιβωτὸς ὀπὰς, ἠκούσθη τὰ ἔντομα ἄν...
ἀληθὴ λέγεις. (ἀλλὰ νομίζω ὅτι ἔδει σε γράψαι τὸ Ἐὰν εἶχεν ἡ κιβωτὸς ὀπὰς...) νῦν οὖν τοῦτο λέγει. θαυμασίως Θεὸς τὰς μελίσσας ἔσῳσε.
mwh wrote:εαν εχει, “corrected” to εαν ειχεν. You are both forgetting that with εαν the subjunctive is used.
Extracted from [url=http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0007%3Asmythp%3D2297]Smyth 2297 on conditional sentences.[/url] wrote:
  • PRESENT - Unreal -
    • Protasis: εἰ with imperfect indicative.
      Apodosis: Imperfect indicative with ἄν.
    PRESENT - General -
    • Protasis: ἐάν with subjunctive.
      Apodosis: present indicative or equivalent.
    PAST - Unreal -
    • Protasis: εἰ with aorist or imperfect indicative.
      Apodosis: Aorist or imperfect indicative with ἄν.
I thought ἔχει was a way of writing the subjunctive. Not the ordinary way, but a supposed alternative that I used because I didn't know how to type the iota subscript of ῃ on my friend's Windows computer.

If the box exists itself but the story is in the past, does the form of the conditional get mixed, like I was trying to do?
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:55 am

mwh wrote:And did none of you see anything amiss with πῶς μὴ ἐπνίγοντο αἱ μέλισσαὶ ἄν;?
I think it is helpful to categorise wrongly composed Greek into 3 types - mistakes, errors and ignorance. In assigning somebody elses "wrong" Greek to one of those categories, there is a fair ammount of guesswork, and the authours may have a better idea of which type it is than the person correcting does.

Let me try with some examples from the compositions here in this thread:
  • Mistakes - are things like IN's δεῦρο for plural. [I assume he knows δεῦτε for the plural, but on this occasions it slipped his mind. For ἐν τῷ αἴτημα, I assume that he does know the dative singular of the noun, but didn't inflect here. The type of things he might facepalm himself for - performance errors.]
  • Errors - are like his ἡ νὺξ αὕτη. [I assume he believes the nominative can be used as a time phrase, and that wrong belief needs to be corrected, he needs to learn (or unlearn) a rule of the language through some study or observation. The type of things he might scratch his head over - mistaken belief or wrong knowledge about the rules of the language.]
  • Ignorance - is like his αἴτημα. [I assume he just used this without it ever crossing his mind that there is an inconsistency between a stern father saying, πρόσεχε σεαυτῷ μὴ βλέπειν ἔσωθεν τὴν κῑβωτόν, and then IN's narrative voice calling that an αἴτημα . The type of thing that might result in a blank look - there are conceptual categories missing from his knowledge of the language.
[/list]

Markos surmised that what appeared to be the present tense ἔχει should have been the imperfect εἶχεν in the conditional. I actually believed that that was an alternative spelling of the subjunctive. It was an error, but not the one he thought.

Now, back to what Michael said. If nobody can see anything wrong with πῶς μὴ ἐπνίγοντο αἱ μέλισσαὶ ἄν; then it is ignorance, and a new concept or set of concepts needs to be introduced or learned.

I have no idea why it is wrong.
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:59 am

ἑκηβόλος wrote:I thought ἔχει was a way of writing the subjunctive. Not the ordinary way, but a supposed alternative that I used because I didn't know how to type the iota subscript of ῃ on my friend's Windows computer.
ἔχει has never been an alternative way of writing ἔχῃ, except perhaps for the occasional scribe who didn't know Greek that well. One might have written ἔχηι...
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:49 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:I thought ἔχει was a way of writing the subjunctive. ...
ἔχει has never been an alternative way of writing ἔχῃ, except perhaps for the occasional scribe who didn't know Greek that well. One might have written ἔχηι...
I over-extended the rule for the second person singular present and future middle and passive forms.
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Isaac Newton » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:07 am

Markos wrote:Very well done. 1. It is easy to understand. 2. It is pleasant on the ears. 3. It's probably pretty close to how a Semitic Koine speaker would have pronounced it. There is not much more one can expect from a Greek reading.
Thanks Marcos..You're right about ἐμπαίζω (normally) taking the dative. In the GNT , when ἐμπαίζω is an active verb it always takes the dative. Examples:
καὶ πλέξαντες στέφανον ἐξ ἀκανθῶν ἐπέθηκαν ἐπὶ τῆς κεφαλῆς αὐτοῦ καὶ κάλαμον ἐν τῇ δεξιᾷ αὐτοῦ, καὶ γονυπετήσαντες ἔμπροσθεν αὐτοῦ ἐνέπαιξαν αὐτῷ λέγοντες Χαῖρε, Βασιλεῦ τῶν Ἰουδαίων,
Matthew 27:29

Even with infinitive,
ἵνα μή ποτε θέντος αὐτοῦ θεμέλιον καὶ μὴ ἰσχύοντος ἐκτελέσαι πάντες οἱ θεωροῦντες ἄρξωνται αὐτῷ ἐμπαίζειν
Luke 14:29

etc.

There is not enough evidence in the GNT that κατακαυχάομαι normally takes the genitive , but I have no reason to doubt that what you're saying is true as you have read much more Greek literature than I have. So I will amend my composition by taking these corrections into consideration:


ἄνθρωπός τις πλούσιος ἦν, ὃς εἶχεν δοῦλον λεγόμενον Ἰωάννην. Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν ὁ πλούσιος ἐνέπαιζον Ἰωάννῃ καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ, “Ῥακά, ὁ θεός μισεῖ σε ὅτι ἐποίησεν σε εἶναι δοῦλον.”

καὶ παραχρῆμα ἔτι λαλοῦντος , ἰδοὺ ἄγγελος Κυρίου ὤφθη καὶ ἐστάθη παρά Ἰωάννῃ, καὶ εἶπεν τῷ πλουσίῳ, τί δὲ κατακαυχᾶσαι τοῦ ἄλλου ? ἤδη εἶ ὑπὸ κρίσιν, ὅτι ἐγένου πλούσιος ἐν δόλῳ.

ἀλλ' ἐδούλωσέ σοι ὁ θεὸς Ἰωάννην πρὸς καιρὸν μικρὸν ἵνα γνῷ τὴν δοκιμὴν αὐτοῦ, εἰ πιστός ἐστιν. καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐδούλευσεν σοι ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ τοσαῦτα ἔτη. διὰ τοῦτο, ὁ θεός ἀγαπᾷ αὐτὸν .
Here's my reading of it:

https://archive.org/details/NewRecording173_201803
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:55 am

Isaac Newton wrote: There is not enough evidence in the GNT that κατακαυχάομαι normally takes the genitive , but I have no reason to doubt that what you're saying is true as you have read much more Greek literature than I have. So I will amend my composition by taking these corrections into consideration:
There is sufficient evidence:

Rom 11:18 μὴ κατακαυχῶ τῶν κλάδων· εἰ δὲ κατακαυχᾶσαι οὐ σὺ τὴν ῥίζαν βαστάζεις ἀλλʼ ἡ ῥίζα σέ

James 2:13 ἡ γὰρ κρίσις ἀνέλεος τῷ μὴ ποιήσαντι ἔλεος· κατακαυχᾶται ἔλεος κρίσεως

Both BDAG and LSJ give τινος indicating that the word takes the genitive.
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:56 am

Markos wrote:
Markos wrote:ἀλλ' ἐδούλωσέ σοι ὁ θεὸς Ἰωάννην.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:The syntactic pattern is too heavy for that verb.
Can you explain this a bit. What do you mean by "heavy?"
While it is a pretty and neatly composed phrase on your part, I don't think that the verb is simple enough to be surrounded by so much information.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:The syntactic pattern is too heavy for that verb. This δουλόω contains in itself both an actual meaning and the omicron suffixed causal element. Adding past tense, perfective aspect, number, person, indirect object, subject and direct object makes a total of 9 morphosyntactic elements. 5-7 elements is more normal.

To be more idiomatic in your use of that type of causative, you could use a middle-passive form to reduce the valence (syntatical elements around the verb) by 1, OR you could split the meaning, by using a preceding phrase to describe a context from which the elements of meaning that you want to associate with ἐδούλωσέ could be implied.
Marcos, What do you make of this? Perhaps you could share some of the thoughts you have had so far about how you understand what I am saying, then we could discuss from there.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

Isaac Newton
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Re: Simple, GNT type sentences composed in Koine

Post by Isaac Newton » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:33 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Isaac Newton wrote: There is not enough evidence in the GNT that κατακαυχάομαι normally takes the genitive , but I have no reason to doubt that what you're saying is true as you have read much more Greek literature than I have. So I will amend my composition by taking these corrections into consideration:
There is sufficient evidence:

Rom 11:18 μὴ κατακαυχῶ τῶν κλάδων· εἰ δὲ κατακαυχᾶσαι οὐ σὺ τὴν ῥίζαν βαστάζεις ἀλλʼ ἡ ῥίζα σέ

James 2:13 ἡ γὰρ κρίσις ἀνέλεος τῷ μὴ ποιήσαντι ἔλεος· κατακαυχᾶται ἔλεος κρίσεως

Both BDAG and LSJ give τινος indicating that the word takes the genitive.
Thanks Barry for James 2:13, which gives us one example of this verb taking the genitive. Is this sufficient evidence that the verb just takes the genitive ?
Last edited by Isaac Newton on Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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