Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.19.29

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Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.19.29

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:18 am

‘ἀλλὰ χρυσοῦν στέφανον φορήσω.’ — ‘εἰ ἅπαξ ἐπιθυμεῖς στεφάνου, ῥόδινον λαβὼν περίθου: ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον.’
'You will look (intransitive = "appear")", "it will be seen (to be)" or "in appearance (it is or you will be)"?
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:45 am

I think it makes best sense as the dative from ὄψις, "more elegant in appearance."
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:19 am

In that case, why accusative?
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1

Post by Hylander » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:54 am

Future οψομαι is active in meaning, not passive.

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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1

Post by mwh » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:48 am

"You'll look nicer." (οψει intrans., κομψ. adverb.) And smell sweeter, he could have added.

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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:01 am

Hylander wrote:Future οψομαι is active in meaning, not passive.
Are you thinking of ὀφθήσῃ ?
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:21 am

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Epictetus, Discourses 1.19.29 wrote:‘ἀλλὰ χρυσοῦν στέφανον φορήσω.’ — ‘εἰ ἅπαξ ἐπιθυμεῖς στεφάνου, ῥόδινον λαβὼν περίθου: ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον.’
'You will look (intransitive = "appear")"
mwh wrote:"You'll look nicer." (οψει intrans., κομψ. adverb.) And smell sweeter, he could have added.
I seem to have used English to assume that ὁράω even has an intransitive in my OP. I can't find evidence of that.

Are there other examples of intransitive use?

[Edit: Some commentary taken out.]
Last edited by ἑκηβόλος on Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:33 am

I have another idea...

Taking ὄψεται in the LSJ Senses II.2 sense
2. see to, “ἴδε πῶμα” Od.8.443 ; look out for, provide, “τινί τι” S.Aj. 1165 (anap.), Theoc.15.2 ; “πρόβατον εἰς ὁλοκάρπωσιν” LXX Ge.22.8.
To quote those examples:
Od.8.443 wrote:αὐτὸς νῦν ἴδε πῶμα, θοῶς δ᾽ ἐπὶ δεσμὸν ἴηλον,
S.Aj. 1163 - 1167 wrote:ἔσται μεγάλης ἔριδός τις ἀγών.
ἀλλ᾽ ὡς δύνασαι, Τεῦκρε, ταχύνας
σπεῦσον κοίλην κάπετόν τιν᾽ ἰδεῖν
τῷδ᾽, ἔνθα βροτοῖς τὸν ἀείμνηστον
τάφον εὐρώεντα καθέξει.
Genesis 22:8 wrote:εἶπεν δὲ Αβρααμ ὁ θεὸς ὄψεται ἑαυτῷ πρόβατον εἰς ὁλοκάρπωσιν, τέκνον
אֱלֹהִ֞ים יִרְאֶה־לֹּ֥ו הַשֶּׂ֛ה - where רָאָה = "see"
In this usage of ὁράω there is a noun of what is provided or prepared. Taking the future ὄψει in this sense, followed by the accusative singular masculine κομψότερον, the phrase could mean "you will provide (for yourself) a more elegant (one / crown).

Alternatively and similarly, given the era of the work, it might have the sense that Matthew uses it in:
Matthew 27:4 wrote:Τότε ἰδὼν Ἰούδας ὁ παραδιδοὺς αὐτὸν ὅτι κατεκρίθη, μεταμεληθεὶς ἀπέστρεψεν τὰ τριάκοντα ἀργύρια τοῖς ἀρχιερεῦσιν καὶ τοῖς πρεσβυτέροις, 4 λέγων, Ἥμαρτον παραδοὺς αἷμα ἀθῷον. Οἱ δὲ εἶπον, Τί πρὸς ἡμᾶς; Σὺ ὄψει.
Matthew 27:24 wrote:δὼν δὲ ὁ Πιλάτος ὅτι οὐδὲν ὠφελεῖ, ἀλλὰ μᾶλλον θόρυβος γίνεται, λαβὼν ὕδωρ, ἀπενίψατο τὰς χεῖρας ἀπέναντι τοῦ ὄχλου, λέγων, Ἀθῷός εἰμι ἀπὸ τοῦ αἵματος τοῦ δικαίου τούτου· ὑμεῖς ὄψεσθε.
Based on these two dialogues between Judas and the elders and between Pilate and the crowd, which is similar to the usage above, but different in that it seems to imply that an action should be carried out, ὄψει ... κομψότερον, with the future taken as a statement of fact rather than command and the comparative as an adverbial, the phrase could mean, "You will see to (the provision of a crown for yourself) in a more refined manner".
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1

Post by jeidsath » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:20 am

MWH is correct. See the LSJ:
5. c. acc. cogn., like βλέπω 11, look so and so, “δεινὸν ὁρῶν ὄσσοισι” Hes.Sc.426 ; “ὁρᾶν ἀλκάν” Pi.O.9.111 ; “ἔαρ ὁρόωσα Νύχεια” Theoc.13.45 ; also ἡδέως ὁρᾶν look pleasant, E.IA1122: c. acc., “κακῶς ὁρᾶν τινα” Philostr.VA7.42.
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:50 am

ἑκηβόλος wrote:In that case, why accusative?
As a complement to [στέφανον] ῥόδινον.
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:50 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:In that case, why accusative?
As a complement to [στέφανον] ῥόδινον.
Is case regularly preserved across a γάρ ?
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1

Post by mwh » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:35 pm

ekηβολε, You have to learn whom to heed, and whom not.

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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:42 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:In that case, why accusative?
As a complement to [στέφανον] ῥόδινον.
Is case regularly preserved across a γάρ ?
I actually had that same thought when I had a second look at the phrase in question in context. Without γάρ I think my proposed reading of the text is likely. γάρ however practically requires a main verb form or the equivalent. Since ὁράω can be used of appearance (LSJ), it looks like (!) ὄψει is the verb.
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1

Post by anphph » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:37 pm

jeidsath wrote:However, here is a deeper mystery for everyone. The Digital Loeb's version:

Image
I'm sure there's a Gorgon joke there somewhere.

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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1

Post by jeidsath » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:41 pm

If you're going to be eaten by a snake, you might as well look good doing it.
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:35 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:Since ὁράω can be used of appearance (LSJ), it looks like (!) ὄψει is the verb.
Very punny indeed.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:46 pm

mwh wrote:ekηβολε, You have to learn whom to heed, and whom not.
For a conjunctive yes,but does γὰρ allow an understood repitition? My impression (gotten rightly or wrongly) is that γὰρ introduces a syntactically independent clause.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1

Post by mwh » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:42 pm

You're right. That οψει is verb should never have been questioned.

And κομψοτερον is obviously a misprint for κομφότερον.

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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:50 pm

mwh wrote:
And κομψοτερον is obviously a misprint for κομφότερον.
I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that suggestion. The logic seems somewhat serpentine, but perhaps that's my punishment for a hasty reading of the text.
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