John 1:15-18

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RKBentley
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John 1:15-18

Post by RKBentley » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:17 am

(15)’Ιωάννης μα?τυ?ει̃ πε?ὶ αὐτου̃ καὶ κέκ?αγεν λέγων οὑ̃τος ἠ̃ν ὃν εἰ̃πον ὁ ὀπίσω μου ἐ?χόμενος ἐ?μπ?οσθέν μου γέγονεν ὁ?τι π?ω̃τός μου ἠ̃ν
(16) ὁ?τι ἐκ του̃ πλη?ώματος αὐτου̃ ἡμει̃ς πάντες ἐλάβομεν καὶ χά?ιν ἀντὶ χά?ιτος
(17) ὁ?τι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωϋσέως ἐδόθη ἡ χά?ις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ ’Ιησου̃ Χ?ιστου̃ ἐγένετο
(18) θεòν οὐδεὶς ἑώ?ακεν πώποτε μονογενὴς θεòς ὁ ὢν εἰς τòν κόλπον του̃ πατ?òς ἐκει̃νος ἐξηγήσατο

My question concerns the ὁ?τι at the beginning of verses 16 & 17. Do they mark the beginning (or continuation) of the discourse of John beginning in verse 15? Or does his discourse end in verse 15 and each subsequent verse should begin with 'Because'?

I hope I'm phrasing my question correctly. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

God Bless!!
RKBentley

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IreneY
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Post by IreneY » Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:43 am

Hello RKBentley. I just checked and the Greek Orthodox Church's site, has ΚΑΙ in place of ΟΤΙ in the beginning of verse 16. It seems it's not the only one :)

(Check this site).

Other than that, I'm afraid I am not quite sure what you mean (but then it's not long since I woke up)

RKBentley
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Post by RKBentley » Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:27 pm

Thank you, Irene, for your post. Very good link. I was afraid I had not phrased my question very well. :oops:

I know that ὁ?τι can be translated 'that' or 'because' or it can introduce a direct quote and not be translated. In John 1:15, the apostle John is quoting John the Baptist. Where exactly does John the Baptist's quote end?

Let me show it in English. Is it:

John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, "This was he of whom I spake, 'He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.'" [end of quote] ?

or does it continue...

16) "From His abundance we have all received and grace for grace."
17) "The law was given through Moses: grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." ?

Who's speaking in 16-18? Is it John the Baptist or the apostle John? If it's John B, the ὁ?τι could introduce his quote. If it's the apostle, I guess ὁ?τι should be translated (and, because, or something).

God Bless!!
RKBentley

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Kopio
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Post by Kopio » Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:13 pm



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IreneY
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Post by IreneY » Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:48 am

Well, Kopio's reply is as clear as it gets :) Just two notes :
the KAI of the Byzantine tradition doesn't necessarily make the following verses part of the quote as I see it.
If you look at verse 19
19 Καὶ αὕτη ?στὶν ἡ μα?τυ?ία τοῦ Ἰωάννου, ὅτε ἀπέστειλαν οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι ?ξ Ἱε?οσολύμων ἱε?εῖς καὶ Λευίτας ἵνα ??ωτήσωσιν α?τόν· Σὺ τίς εἶ;
I think it is clear that the previous quote finished, John (the apostle) said something (16-18 ) and then he quotes John (the Baptist) again.
Last edited by IreneY on Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kopio
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Post by Kopio » Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:46 am

IreneY wrote:Well, Kopio's reply is as clear as it gets :)
Coming from a native Greek speaker, I will take that as a HUGE compliment. That really made my day :)

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