Annis, here is my friends response: Beware it's a lengthy one
Annis wrote:
I'm an atheist, so the disposition in this dispute is of
noabiding interest to me. However you are torturing both Greek and
English in theservice of this grammaticalized theodicy of yours.
Since Context has been invoked, I repeat your words before Igive
a longer answer:
Quote:
The Greek present tense by itself does not convey such anidea -
nor does its counterpart in English. Simple present tense action in
theabsence of qualifiers demands a singular action in the present moment
withoutrequiring that it continue into later moments in any language.
This is trivially and demonstrably false. Both Greek andEnglish
often use a simple present verb, without adverbial modifiers, todescribe
not only continuous/imperfective actions, but habitual orcharacteristic
action, action which, by being habitual, is necessarily extendedin time.
Here's some Epicurean wisdom (Letter to Menoceus 129):
Quote:
And since this is the first and innate good, on that accountwe
also do not choose every pleasure, but sometimes we pass overmany
pleasures when a greater distress will follow us from them.
The present tense abounds! And in every case it is adescription
of a general, habitual characteristic of the sensible Epicurean.There is
neither undending choosing, nor a single choice in the present, but
adescription of the correct course of action to attain ataraxia in
allcircumstances.
So I repeat myself - your assertion that a simple
present"demands a singular action in the present" is untrue, in both
Greekand English. Perhaps your reading of the passage is correct. I
doubt it - itconflicts with the Greek I've read - but I don't much care.
But you cannotinsist your interpretation is required by the grammar. It
is not.
__________________________________________________________
The words 'by itself' have meaning in my sentence. Notice that your
sentence has the context of habitual written all over it. The present
tense 'by itself' means just that. Suggest you read the entire article
on present tense:
http://www.biblestudymanuals/index4.htm
NEW TESTAMENT GREEK VERBS
I) INTRODUCTION
In English, verb tenses generally denote the time of action. Factors
such as context, specific verb forms and modifiers like adverbs,
conjunctions and phrases further determine the time of action as well as
the beginning, duration and end of that action.
In New Testament Greek, verb tenses generally denote the kind of action.
Factors such as context, specific verb forms and modifiers like adverbs,
conjunctions and phrases further determine the time of action as well as
the beginning, duration and end of that action.
Although there are distinct differences between the languages of the
world and ancient koine New Testament Greek, there are sufficient
devices in the languages of the world, including 21st Century American
English, to accurately reflect what is portrayed by the writers of the
New Testament books of the Bible. If this were not so, then God's Word
could only be accurately available to those who are fluent in the
ancient, archaic koine Greek, which no one uses today as a primary or
secondary language. But this has certainly not been the case with so
many reliable translations around the world for generations. Modern
American English translations have proven to be extremely reliable. So
one need not consult the original languages except to provide
corroborating evidence of a good translation with occasional correction
or refinement as no translation is perfect.
II) PRESENT TENSE
Greek grammar books often stipulate that present tense expresses
progressive or linear action but then they add the proviso that such
action is more specifically defined by context and modifiers such as
adverbs, phrases and conjunctions - often to the extent that it is
neither progressive nor linear.
[Compare A. T. Robertson, "A Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p. 864,
879]:
"It is not wise therefore to define the present indicative as denoting
'action in progress' like the imperfect as Burton does, for he has to
take it back on p. 9 in the discussion of the 'Aoristic Present,' which
he calls a 'distinct departure from the prevailing use of the present
tense to denote action in progress.' In sooth, it is no 'departure' at
all. The idiom is as old as the tense itself...
It has already been seen that the durative sense does not monopolize the
'present' tense, though it more frequently denotes linear action. The
verb and the context must decide."
So the key common denominator relative to present tense verb usage is
that the action is to be viewed as internal as opposed to external
wherein the former has in view action from within as it occurs, and the
latter has in view action which is completed or action which has not yet
occurred.
An examination of the various present tenses used in the New Testament
Books will corroborate and clarify this:
[From: "Syntax of New Testament Greek" in {} brackets, Brooks & Winbery,
1979, University Press, Lanham, Md, pp. 82-90]:
A) {DESCRIPTIVE PRESENT
This category is sometimes referred to as the progressive present of
description. This use of the present describes what is now actually
taking place. It might even be called the pictorial present. It depicts
an action in progress.}
1) [Compare Mt 8:24-25]:
(v. 24) "Without warning, a furious storm came up on the lake, so that
the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping.
(v. 25) The disciples went and woke him, saying, "Lord, save us! We're
going to drown!"
"We're going to drown" = "apollumetha" = lit., "we are perishing",
(i.e., going to drown),
..................................................................presen
t, indicative
Notice that the context indicates that one is approaching the point of
perishing in the water during the ongoing storm. But they are not yet in
the water, nor drowning as yet. But the possibility of drowning is
imminent. So the context is dictating the action of the verb
"apollumetha" = "we are perishing" which is not a literal continuous
scenario of perishing in the water as yet, i.e., continuous action is
not in view here.
2) [Compare 1 Jn 2:8]:
"The darkness is passing away and the true light already is shining."
"is passing away" = "paragetai" = present, indicative mood
"is shining" = "phainei" = present, indicative mood
Notice that continuous action is in view here - but an end is in sight
as the context indicates, i.e., when the light is completely shining.
B) {DURATIVE PRESENT
Some grammarians call this the progressive present. An action or a state
of being which began in the past is described as continuing until the
present. The past and the present are gathered up in a single
affirmation. An adverb of time is often used with this kind of present,
but a verb alone is sometimes sufficient as in the final example given
below. This use of the Greek present is usually translated by the
English present perfect. Although impractical to bring out in English
translation, the full meaning is that something has been and still is.}
1) [Compare Luke 13:7]:
"Behold, I have been coming for three years seeking fruit on this fig
tree, and I have found none."
"I have been coming" = "erchomai" = lit., "am coming", present,
indicative
"I have found none" = "ouch heuriskO" = lit., "am finding", present,
indicative
Note that context establishes that the action portrayed is not
absolutely continuous to the extent that when it has begun, it is
unceasing; but it is an action which is nevertheless ongoing in a
repetitive manner - He comes one time, ends, and then another and
another comes, goes and then it comes again.
2) [Compare 2 Cor 12:7-9]:
(v. 7)"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly
great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger
of Satan, to torment me.
(v.
Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.
(v. 9) He said to me, My grace is sufficient for you; my power is made
perfect in weakness."
"is sufficient" = "arkei" = present, indicative
"is made perfect" = "teleitai" = present, indicative
Notice that the context indicates continuous action which began in the
past and continues in the present - very similar to the perfect tense.
C) {ITERATIVE PRESENT
The iterative present depicts an action which is repeated at various
intervals. It might be illustrated by a series of dots (....) rather
than a straight line (_______). Sometimes the repetition takes the form
of a local, as opposed to universal, custom or practice. It is necessary
to distinguish this use from those statements of universal truth called
'gnomic'...}
1) [Compare 1 Cor 11:26]:
"As often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the
death of the Lord."
"you proclaim" = "kataggellete" = present, indicative
[Notice that the context established by "as often as you eat and drink"
establishes the repetitive action of "you proclaim" which is distinctly
not continuous]
2) [Compare Mt 17:15]:
"Lord, have mercy on my son," he said. "He has seizures and is suffering
greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water."
The verb "falls"is present, active, indicative. Notice the word "often"
which is part of the context that points to a repeated action which is
not continuous. Each incident of falling is repeated again and again.
D) {TENDENTIAL PRESENT
The present tense is sometimes used to indicate an action being
contemplated, or proposed, or attempted but which has not actually taken
place. The name is derived from the intention to produce the desired
result. Other grammarians call this the conative present or the
inchoative present. An auxiliary verb such as 'attempt,' 'try,' 'go,' or
'begin' may be used in the translation.}
1) [Compare Gal 5:2-4]:
(v. 2) "Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be
circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.
(v. 3) Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that
he is obligated to obey the whole law.
(v. 4) You who are trying to be justified by law [i.e., works of
righteousness such as circumcision] have been alienated from Christ; you
have fallen away from grace."
"are trying to be justified" = "dikaiousthe" = lit., "are being
justified", present, indicative.
Note: continuous action in the present of attempting to be justified is
in view as a result of the context indicating that one cannot be
justified by law = ongoing works of the Law.
E) {GNOMIC PRESENT
The gnomic present is used to express a universal truth, a maxim, a
commonly accepted fact, a state or condition which perpetually exists,
and a very widespread practice or custom. The time element is remote
even in the indicative mood because the action or state or truth is true
for all time - the past and future as well as the present. Such words as
'always,' 'ever,' and 'never' are often used in the translation.
In attempting to determine whether a present which depicts a custom or
practice is iterative or gnomic, the following should be taken into
consideration. If the custom or practice is local in nature and/or is
confined to a comparatively brief period, the present is iterative. If
the custom or practice is widespread and/or extends over a comparatively
long period of time the present is gnomic. It should also be remembered
that the iterative present expresses linear action, the gnomic
punctiliar action.}
1) [Compare Matt. 7:17]:
"Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad
fruit."
"bears" = "polei" = present, indicative
Note: The action indicated by "polei" is not continuous in the sense
that it is unceasing in the present moment. When the good tree produces
fruit, it is produced in season, in the present moment - the length and
quality of that production being indeterminate except that it produces
good fruit as opposed to bad fruit - each season, every time - but not
without ceasing.
2) [Compare Jn 7:52]:
"They replied, "Are you from Galilee, too? Look into it, and you will
find that a prophet does not come out of Galilee."
[Note again that the action of coming out of some 'home area' is
obviously not continuous]
F) {HISTORICAL PRESENT
For the sake of vividness or dramatic effect a writer sometimes imagines
that he and/or his readers are present and are witnessing a past event.
He narrates the past event as though it were actually taking place. The
present tense is used for this purpose. The historical present is
frequently found in Mark and John. It is ordinarily translated into
English by the simple past tense}
1) [Compare Mt 3:1]:
"In those days John the Baptist appeared. [lit. arrives, appears]"
"appeared" = "paraginetai" = lit., "appears", present, indicative
2) [Compare Mt 13:44 NKJV]:
"Again the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a
man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has
and buys that field."
["Buys" is rendered from "agorazei", present, active, indicative as are
"goes", sells" and "has." The action, however, occurred in the past
tense: the man paid the money, took possession, and the deed was done]
3) [Compare Mt 13:45-46]:
(v. 45) "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for
fine pearls.
(v. 46) When he found one of great value, he went away and sold
everything he had and bought it."
[Mt 13:45-46 parallels v. 44 with the verb "bought" in v. 46 rendered
from "Egorasen", aorist, active, indicative = past tense to portray past
tense events.
The Historic Present occurs frequently in narrative, especially in the
gospels. Often the verb rendered "to say" occurs in present form even
though it is describing past action. In these cases, the kind of action
is not necessarily durative. The idiom is similar to the English
colloquial speech which is demonstrated as follows:
"So the fat guy says to the skinny guy, 'You're a wimp'.
Then the skinny guy gets up and jumps on the fat guy's head."
The verbs "says,", "gets", and "jumps" are all present in form, even
though they are describing past action.
It is obvious that these verbs cannot be considered continuous actions.
This mode of speech, relating a past incident using present tense verbs,
makes the narrative vivid by transporting the hearer to the time of the
action. Or it could be said the incident being described is transported
to the time of the narration. By this means, the speaker recreates the
incident as if it is happening at the moment. He puts the scene before
himself and his audience and they imagine the events unfolding before
their eyes. They are imagining themselves as being in the midst of the
time of the action]
G) {FUTURISTIC PRESENT
The present tense is sometimes used for confident assertions about what
is going to take place in the future. The event, although it has not yet
occurred, is looked upon as so certain that it is thought of as already
occurring. The futuristic present is often used in prophecies. A test
for this use is the ability to translate the Greek present with an
English future, though the future, will not always be used in the
translation.}
1) [Compare Jn 14:1-3]:
(v. 1) "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in
me.
(v. 2) In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would
have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
(v. 3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and
take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."
"I will come" = "erchomai" = lit., "am coming", present, indicative.
Notice that the context indicates not a present continuous action but a
future action.
H) {AORISTIC PRESENT
What is here called the aoristic present and what some grammarians call
the specific or effective present involves a simple expression of
undefined action in the present time without any of the more developed
implications of the gnomic, historical, or futuristic presents. The
aoristic present presents the action as a simple event or as a present
fact without any reference to its progress. By the nature of the case
the verb "eimi" is often an aoristic present.}
1) [Compare Mk 2:3-5]:
(v. 3) "Some men came, bringing to Him [Jesus] a paralytic, carried by
four of them.
(v. 4) Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they
made an opening in the roof above Jesus and, after digging through it,
lowered the mat the paralyzed man was lying on.
(v. 5) When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, 'Son, your
sins are forgiven.' "
"are forgiven" = "aphientai" = lit. "are forgiven", present, indicative
Notice that there is an action in the present tense established by the
context as not continuous but simply a moment in the present.
III) ENGLISH AND FIRST CENTURY GREEK REQUIRES SPECIAL CONTEXT OR
ADDITIONAL QUALIFYING WORDS TO MAKE PRESENT TENSE ACTION CONTINUOUS
THROUGHOUT THE PRESENT
Present tense in NT koine Greek provides an internal view of action as
it is occuring. Factors such as context, specific verb forms and
modifiers like adverbs, conjunctions and phrases further determine the
time of action as well as the beginning, duration and end of that
action.
So the Greek present tense by itself does not automatically convey
continuous action - nor does the English equivalent. It may or may not
be continuous - depending upon the context and/or the presence of
qualifying words.
No first century Greek reader or hearer was likely to get a meaning such
as 'continue to believe' without the necessary additional qualifiers to
the present tense.
A) [Compare Hebrews 13:15]:
"Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice
of praise--the fruit of lips that confess his name."
"anapherOmen ..thusian .aineseOs diapantos"
"we should offer sacrifice of praise continually"
Notice that "anapherOmen" = "we should offer" is present tense. Yet in
order to emphasize continual action the word "diapantos" = "continually"
must be inserted.
B) [Compare 1 Thes 2:13]:
"And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word
of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men,
but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who
believe. "
"hEmeis eucharistoumen tO theO .....adialeiptOs" =
"we .......give thanks .............to God ..unceasingly"
Notice that "eucharistoumen" = "give thanks" is present tense,
indicative mood. Yet in order to emphasize unceasing activity the word
"adialeiptOs" = "unceasingly" must be inserted to picture unceasing
action.
C) [Compare 1 Thes 5:16-18]:
(v. 16) "Be joyful always;
(v. 17) pray unceasingly;
(v. 18) give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you
in Christ Jesus."
"adialeiptOs proseuchesthe" =
"unceasingly pray"
Notice that "proseuchesthe" = "pray" is present tense, imperative mood.
Yet in order to emphasize unceasing activity the word "adialeiptOs" =
"unceasingly" must be inserted to picture unceasing action.
D) [Compare Jn 3:16]:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that
whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."
"whoever believes in Him" = "pas ho pisteuon" = lit, whoever [is] the
believer, nominative particple, i.e., a noun
"should have eternal life" = "all echE zOEn aiOnion" = present tense
verb (echE)
If the present tense were the verb in the original Greek text of John
3:16, "whoever believes" - and it is not, it is the noun, 'pas ho
pisteuon' = whoever [is] the believer', then a special context and/or
additional words such as "diapantos" = continually and the future tense
'will have eternal life' instead of 'have eternal life', must be
inserted into the text in order to convey the idea of continuous
believing in order to have eternal life.
If the present tense were the verb in the original Greek text of John
3:16, "whoever believes" - and it is not, it is the noun, 'pas ho
pisteuon' = whoever [is] the believer', then a special context and/or
additional words such as "diapantos" = continually and the future tense
'will have eternal life' instead of present tense 'have eternal life',
must be inserted into the text in order to convey the idea of continuous
believing in order to eventually secure eternal life. If possession of
eternal life is secured in the present moment of believing, (and it is),
then it is secured forever, being eternal by definition.
Consider the individuals who are found guilty of various offenses before
a magistrate in a court in the times of the ancient Roman Empire - New
Testament times. The magistrate declares before the group of guilty
people in koine Greek, the language of the New Testament, in a statement
that directly parallels the second half of Jn 3:16, 'Whoever pays his
fine shall not perish in jail, but have freedom to go, with his life.'
Does the present tense of 'Whoever pays' demand continuous -
uninterrupted payment of the fine in order for an individual to "have
freedom to go, with his life?" The answer is obvious, the present tense
does not always demand continuous uninterrupted action in the present.
Just as the payment of the Magistrate's fine was done once in present
time such that it results in freedom - the payment not having to be
continuous;
so the believing in Christ as Savior, when it begins in present time,
immediately results in the aorist completed action of never perishing
and the present tense reception of eternal life such that the believing
need not continue in order to keep the result of never perishing and
possession of eternal life continuous because the never perishing is a
completed action and the eternal life by its very nature once received
is continuously eternal.
In addition to this, the appeal to force the simple present tense to
mean continuous action would lead to havoc in many passages in the New
Testament. For example, 1 John 1:8 reads, "If we [born again believers]
say that we have no sin [="ouk echomen" = present tense] we deceive
ourselves". If this verse is rendered in the continuous mode, it would
be read, "If we say that we do not continuously have sin, we deceive
ourselves and the truth is not in us." This indicates that in spite of
becoming born again believers there is no time in the believer's life
that he can claim not to be living a lifestyle of continuous,
unadulterated sin - no time for anything else!!!
IV) AORIST TENSE
[SYNTAX OF NEW TESTAMENT GREEK, James A. Brooks, Carlton L. Winbery,
University Press of America, Lanham, Md., 1988, pp. 98, 118-120,
111-112]:
[p. 98]
"The aorist tense expresses punctiliar action. Indeed the word aoristos
[aorist] means without limit, unqualified, undefined - which of course
is the significance of punticiliar action. Only in the indicative mood
[as in both verbs in Jn 3:16 main clause] does the aorist also indicate
past time."
It often corresponds to the English perfect (I have loosed).
So the aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence",
without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action.
This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense.
'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,'
a "one-point-in-time" action in which from an external point of view the
action is completed - no longer requiring further time to elapse,
although it may actually have taken place over a period of time. In the
indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the
past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.
Bob
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