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Post by Mindy » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:23 pm

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Re: αρχιερείς in Matt 26: 3 and Luke 22: 52

Post by jeidsath » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:41 pm

Thayer's has a discussion of this word and the meaning of singular/plural of this word: http://biblehub.com/thayers/749.htm

It refers to the following discussion (in German) by Emil Schürer:

https://www.digizeitschriften.de/dms/im ... 7Clog00034

From just reading the first paragraph of the Schürer article, it is clearly a serious study of exactly this question. But I don't have the time to read through it all just now.
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Re: αρχιερείς in Matt 26: 3 and Luke 22: 52

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:56 pm

BDAG also cites this article and notes that Josephus uses the term similarly:

② a priest of high rank, chief priest
ⓐ in Israel’s cultic life. The pl. is used in the NT and in Joseph. (Schürer II 233, 25; 235, 34) to denote members of the Sanhedrin who belonged to highpriestly families: ruling high priests, those who had been deposed, and adult male members of the most prominent priestly families (s. Schürer II 232–36 w. ref. [235, 36] to the view of a jurisdictional body proposed by JJeremias, Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus ’69, 175–81, s. also GSchrenk, TW III 271, 37). ἀρχιερεῖς w. ἄρχοντες Lk 23:13; 24:20; w. γραμματεῖς and πρεσβύτεροι Mt 16:21; 27:41; Mk 8:31; 11:27; 14:43, 53; 15:1; Lk 9:22; 20:1; w. γραμματεῖς (IMagnMai 197, 11f; 193, 10; Thieme 21f) Mt 2:4; 20:18; 21:15; Mk 10:33; 11:18; 14:1; 15:31; Lk 20:19; 22:2, 66; 23:10; GJs 6:2; w. πρεσβύτεροι Mt 21:23 (cp. Lk 20:1); 26:3, 47; 27:1, 3, 12, 20; Ac 4:23; 23:14; 25:15; w. Σαδδουκαῖοι Ac 4:1 v.l.; ἀ. καὶ τὸ συνέδριον ὅλον Mt 26:59; Mk 14:55; Ac 22:30 (πᾶν τὸ συν.). οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς alone=the Sanhedrin Ac 9:14. Cp. Hb 10:11 v.l.; 1 Cl 40:5; 41:2; GJs 6:2.—On ἀ. τ. ἐνιαυτοῦ ἐκ. J 11:49, 51; 18:13 s. ἐνιαυτός 1.
ⓑ by fig. ext., of Christian prophets D 13:3 and ApcPt 20 (Harnack’s text, Wilamowitz ἀδελφῶν, Schubert ἀρχηγῶν).—Pauly-W. II 471–83. EDNT. M-M. TW. Sv.


Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 139). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
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Re: αρχιερείς in Matt 26: 3 and Luke 22: 52

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:21 am

Mindy wrote:Matt 26: 3
Τότε συνήχθησαν οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς καὶ οἱ πρεσβύτεροι τοῦ λαοῦ εἰς τὴν αὐλὴν τοῦ ἀρχιερέως τοῦ λεγομένου Καϊάφα

"Then assembled οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς (nom. pl.) καὶ οἱ πρεσβύτεροι (older men nom. pl.) of the people into the court τοῦ ἀρχιερέως (gen. sing.) who was called Καιάφα (Caiaphas)."
οἱ πρεσβύτεροι in this passage refers to a group of leaders. They probably were old men.
53.77 πρεσβύτεροςb, ου m: a person of responsibility and authority in matters of socio-religious concerns, both in Jewish and Christian societies — ‘elder.’ ὅπου οἱ γραμματεῖς καὶ οἱ πρεσβύτεροι συνήχθησαν ‘where the teachers of the Law and the elders had [p. 543] gathered together’ Mt 26:57; ἀπὸ δὲ τῆς Μιλήτου πέμψας εἰς Ἔφεσον μετεκαλέσατο τοὺς πρεσβυτέρους τῆς ἐκκλησίας ‘he sent a message from Miletus to Ephesus asking the elders of the church to meet him’ Ac 20:17. In some languages πρεσβύτεροςb is best rendered as ‘older leaders,’ but in other languages the more appropriate term would be the equivalent of ‘counselor,’ since it would be assumed that counselors would be older than the average person in a group as well as having authority to lead and direct activities.

Louw & Nida, UBS 1989
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Post by Mindy » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:14 am

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Re: αρχιερείς in Matt 26: 3 and Luke 22: 52

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:47 am

Mindy wrote:
C. S. Bartholomew wrote: οἱ πρεσβύτεροι in this passage refers to a group of leaders. They probably were old men.
οί πρεσβύτεροι = Presbyterians (meaning elders)?
Presbyters (also called "priests") are one of the 3 ranks in the hierarchy of many of the oldest and more traditional Christrian churches.

On the other hand, presbyterian is a form of church government within the reformed tradition, in which a group of presbyters (or elders) at a chuch level called a session (or consistory) meet together to decide matters of church governance at a local level. At a regional level, some of the presbyters (or elders) meet together as the the presbytry (or clasis) to decide matters of chuch government, and in a synod at a much larger geographical level. The notable feature of that system is that there is no bishop. At every level of chuch government, decisions are taken by presbyters, so hence the name Presbyterian. While there is no bishop in the system at any level, the presidency of the local meetings is carried out by the minister as teaching elder, at the regional level by the moderator, and at a larger level by the moderator general. At all those meetings, predidency is still by an elder, who is primus inter pares.

As to the question about whether presbyters (or elders) were male or female, let me just say that some times and in some juristictions of the Presbyterian church, women are ordained as elders. The only one I met recently myself was a retiree in Numurkah. That in itself is not a direct indication of the gender of the "elders" mentioned in the Biblical texts.

Basically, Presbyterian is not a valid translation of the biblical text - that would be anachronistic, nor is contemporary church governance of the Presbyterian church any better an indication of the polity of the church of the New Testament era than any other systems of government that lay claim to a basis in the scriptures. Seeing as this duscssion started with αρχιερείς, let me mention that one typologies for the role of bishop is the OT distinction between all Old Testament priests in general and a select few called αρχιερείς
They probably included deacons in the Epistles?
Perhaps the other way around... references to deacons may include presbyters (elders) too, though it isa question, about which you will find some discussion. In the same way that congregation includes all of its members, rather than always being used to differentiate the people from the clergy.
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Re: αρχιερείς in Matt 26: 3 and Luke 22: 52

Post by jeidsath » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:21 pm

This is talking about Jewish leaders, not Christian.
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Re: αρχιερείς in Matt 26: 3 and Luke 22: 52

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:46 pm

Mindy wrote:In Hebrew OT the word for elder is זִקְנֵ:
...
In NT it has become οἱ πρεσβύτεροι. Later Christians used this title just as they inherited the OT. In history it is a word for both Jews and Christians, just as the OT is for both of them.
For most gentile and some hellenised Jewish Christians, the Old Testament Scriptures were read in the Greek translations.

There are a number of ways the Scriptures have been read by different schools and in different eras. There were some writers read the words of scripture as applicable right to the moment and circumstances of the reader, others have found the meaning of the Scriptures in the time they were written (or written about).

Within Judaism there were numerous schools of interpretation within Judaism that overlapped with the teachings of Jesus and his disciples in many ways, but not in others. The dislocation of Christianity from Judaism and the spread of the scriptures among those, who had no knowledge of or connection with the land were two steps towards further definition of Christian interpretations of Scripture.

While there were people who saw some passages in the Old Testament that mentioned πρεσβύτερος, and read those as directly as relating to the πρεσβύτερος or those functioning in the offices of the church. The beginnings of the dislocation of Christianity from Judaism is recorded in the New Testament. If it was recorded, then it must have pre-dated the writing of those parts of the New Testament. It is unlikely that the early Christians saw the council you mentioned as typical of Chuch government.

I agree with Joel's comment and with yours.
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Re: αρχιερείς in Matt 26: 3 and Luke 22: 52

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:08 pm

πρεσβύτερος
Mindy wrote:In Hebrew Torah the word for elder is זִקְנֵ:

Exodus 17: 6
ו הִנְנִי עֹמֵד לְפָנֶיךָ שָּׁם עַל-הַצּוּר, בְּחֹרֵב, וְהִכִּיתָ בַצּוּר וְיָצְאוּ מִמֶּנּוּ מַיִם, וְשָׁתָה הָעָם; וַיַּעַשׂ כֵּן מֹשֶׁה, לְעֵינֵי זִקְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל

6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink.' And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.
Mindy,

Here are a few additional Hebrew words which are rendered by πρεσβύτερος in ancient Greek translations of the Old Testament. If you take a look at the Hebrew lexicons you will discover how the meanings generally overlap at some point.


Gen. 19:33, 34, 37, Gen. 29:26 בכירה

BDB: n.f. first-born, always of women.

Ex. 34:30, Josh. 7:23 οἱ πρεσβύτεροι Ισραηλ בני ישׂראל

... sons of Israel


Gen. 27:15, 27:42, 2Chr. 15:13, 2Chr. 32:3 גדול

Very common adjective: great, distinguished, first quality ...

2Chr. 22:1 ראשׁון

BDB: common adj. former, first, chief
BDB (abbreviated)
ראשׁון adj. former, first, chief —
1. former:
a. in time, former of two; more gen. former, previous; early days of harvest; ראשׁנים as subst., former persons, ancestors, men of old; ‏ראשׁנות(ה) as subst. the former things., i.e. past events, earlier predictions.
b. loc., foremost, of two.
2. first:
a. in time; ’ רabs., first of mankind; abs. of ’י, I (am the) first; abs. of time, מראשׁון from the beginning; esp. first of a def. series (sts. opp. אחרון), first day of feast; usu. first month (חדשׁ).
b. first in degree, chief.
3. a. fem. c. prep. as adv. phr.:
(1) of time, בראשׁנה = before, formerly, ’לר = before, formerly, so ’כבר as formerly; ’‏ בר= at first, first of all;
(2) loc., ’בר, i.e. at the head of an army, a procession.
b. ראשׁנה alone as adv.:
(1) of time, first;
(2) of place;
(3) of degree, rank.
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Re: αρχιερείς in Matt 26: 3 and Luke 22: 52

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:37 pm

Here are a few additional Hebrew words which are rendered by πρεσβύτερος in ancient Greek translations of the Old Testament. If you take a look at the Hebrew lexicons you will discover how the meanings generally overlap at some point.
The next step is to take a look at what other Greek words are used to translate זקן and compare their meaning to πρεσβύτερος to see what we can learn. I limited the selection to nouns or adjectives used as nouns (substantives). There's a lot of repetition so I will not give exhausted results.
Ex. 3:16 τὴν γερουσίαν τῶν υἱῶν Ισραηλ ‏את־זקני ישׂראל
Ex. 3:18 καὶ ἡ γερουσία Ισραηλ ‏וזקני ישׂראל
Ex. 4:29 τὴν γερουσίαν τῶν υἱῶν Ισραηλ ‏את־כל־זקני בני ישׂראל
Ex. 12:21 πᾶσαν γερουσίαν υἱῶν Ισραηλ ‏לכל־זקני ישׂראל
Ex. 17:6 τῶν υἱῶν Ισραηλ. זקני ישׂראל
Ex. 24:9 τῆς γερουσίας Ισραηλ ‏ולזקני ישׂראל
Lev. 9:1 καὶ τὴν γερουσίαν Ισραηλ. ‏ולזקני ישׂראל
Num. 22:4 καὶ εἶπεν Μωαβ τῇ γερουσίᾳ Μαδιαμ ‏ ויאמר מואב אל־זקני מדין
Num. 22:7 ἡ γερουσία Μωαβ καὶ ἡ γερουσία Μαδιαμ ‏זקני מואב וזקני מדין
Deut. 21:19 ἐπὶ τὴν γερουσίαν τῆς πόλεως αὐτοῦ ‏אל־זקני עירו
Deut. 22:15 πρὸς τὴν γερουσίαν ἐπὶ τὴν πύλην, ‏אל־זקני העיר השׁערה
Deut. 22:17 ἐναντίον τῆς γερουσίας τῆς πόλεως ‏אל־זקני העיר

Deut. 29:9 Ὑμεῖς ἑστήκατε πάντες σήμερον ἐναντίον κυρίου τοῦ θεοῦ ὑμῶν, οἱ ἀρχίφυλοι ὑμῶν καὶ ἡ γερουσία ὑμῶν καὶ οἱ κριταὶ ὑμῶν καὶ οἱ γραμματοεισαγωγεῖς ὑμῶν, πᾶς ἀνὴρ Ισραηλ,
‏ אתם נצבים היום כלכם לפני יהוה אלהיכם ראשׁיכם שׁבטיכם זקניכם ושׁטריכם כל אישׁ ישׂראל

1Sam. 8:4 καὶ συναθροίζονται ἄνδρες Ισραηλ ‏ויתקבצו כל זקני ישׂראל
1Sam. 11:3 καὶ λέγουσιν αὐτῷ οἱ ἄνδρες Ιαβις ‏ ויאמרו אליו זקני יבישׁ

Job 32:9 οὐχ οἱ πολυχρόνιοί εἰσιν σοφοί, οὐδ᾿ οἱ γέροντες οἴδασιν κρίμα.
‏לא־רבים יחכמו וזקנים יבינו משׁפט
The Pentateuch evidence is pretty straightforward. A Study comparing the contexts in which זקן is translated πρεσβύτερος with the contexts where it is translated with γερουσία would be a useful project. Deut. 29:9 is cited in full to show the repetitious pattern.

Notice 1st Samuel breaks the pattern with ἄνδρες Ισραηλ and οἱ ἄνδρες Ιαβις.
11.83 γερουσία, ας f; πρεσβυτέριον, ου n: the highest council of the Jews (see also συνέδριον ‘Sanhedrin, the council of the Jews,’ 11.80) but with the implication of the maturity and relative advanced age of those constituting the membership of such a council — ‘Sanhedrin, high council of the Jews.’10
γερουσία: ὁ ἀρχιερεὺς καὶ οἱ σὺν αὐτῷ συνεκάλεσαν τὸ συνέδριον καὶ πᾶσαν τὴν γερουσίαν τῶν υἱῶν Ἰσραήλ ‘the High Priest and his companions called together the Sanhedrin, that is, the whole council of elders of the Jewish people’ Ac 5:21.
πρεσβυτέριονa: ὁ ἀρχιερεὺς μαρτυρεῖ μοι καὶ πᾶν τὸ πρεσβυτέριον ‘the High Priest and all the council of elders can witness on my behalf’ Ac 22:5.

Louw & Nida UBS 1989
Note: I keep citing Louw & Nida because they are so much better than Septuagint Lexicon I have. Anyone with a decent Septuagint lexicon is welcome to contribute to the discussion.
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Re: αρχιερείς in Matt 26: 3 and Luke 22: 52

Post by jeidsath » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:26 pm

Mindy wrote:Recently I have read Exodus 17: 6. So I took it as an example. I also found it in Greek:
...ἐποίησεν δὲ Μωυσῆς οὕτως ἐναντίον τῶν υἱῶν Ισραηλ.
And the Greek word for elder is υιών, but not πρεσβύτερος. So I have stopped there.
The LXX is a Greek translation, and not always 100% identical to our Hebrew version. Here it has "the sons of Israel."

This may have been a translator's error, or it may have been that they were working from a different Hebrew text. Our Hebrew texts are much younger than the LXX's Hebrew text.
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Post by Mindy » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:44 pm

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Re: αρχιερείς in Matt 26: 3 and Luke 22: 52

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:25 pm

Mindy wrote:I also puzzled why elders were translated into sons. Joel explained why.

I only know one Hebrew version. How many Hebrew versions are there? Which one should we learn?
The Leningrad Codex, Aleppo Codex, several from Qumran and the Cairo Genizah; the Isaiah scroll from Qumran, Minor Prophets Scroll, Daniel, a few others.

The Hebrew texts used for ancient Greek translations are for the most part no longer available.
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Re: αρχιερείς in Matt 26: 3 and Luke 22: 52

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:42 pm

Mindy wrote:
Maybe that is why some Jews don't agree with the Greek translation.
The old testament greek translations became the bible of the early church. The rejection of the Greek Old Testament was a reflection of religious strife. Actually this issue is quite complicated. Randall Buth and Steven Notley have published arguments that first century Palestinian Jews spoke Hebrew,
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Re: αρχιερείς in Matt 26: 3 and Luke 22: 52

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:08 am

Mindy wrote:I read about this at a Jewish website. So it is only an opinion from a Jewish point of view.
The ancient Greek translations of the Hebrew Bible served a purpose for the synagogues in regions where Greek was a language spoken by everyone. Assuming R. Buth and S. Notley are correct that a late form of Hebrew was a living language in some regions of Palestine in the first century, that doesn't imply that all forms of Biblical Hebrew would've been instantaneously intelligible. The observant would be familiar from hearing readings in the synagogue. However, the Greek versions of the Prophets, Job ... Daniel, give the impression that the translator found it difficult to comprehend the Hebrew text.

The Greek OT versions were apparently[1] preferred by the authors of the New Testament. The Greek OT was used by the early apologists in their arguments with the Jews. For all of these reasons Greek OT versions came to be associated with the early church and eventually fell out of favor with their opponents. Hard to to imagine a wealthy Greek speaking diaspora Jew throwing away her Greek bible.

[1]It may be possible to determine if an author of the New Testament is translating directly from the Hebrew Bible Masoretic Text or simply citing a Greek version. However, the author might be freshly translating a Hebrew manuscript from a different family or citing a Greek version that didn't survive.
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Re: αρχιερείς in Matt 26: 3 and Luke 22: 52

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:16 pm

Mindy,

Do I understand? I'm not certain. You read Torah in Hebrew every day. You asked a question about the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. You are working your way through Crosby & Schaeffer which appears to be a textbook on Attic Greek?

If you were to ask a question of Peter J. Williams[1] which included the words: Torah Hebrew Greek Gospels; What would the answer be? I am not certain, but the word Septuagint would probably be in there somewhere. On the other hand, Williams might go out his way to avoid using that term and make reference instead to ancient Greek versions.

Peter J. Williams gave a humorous lecture on the Septuagint. The humor and accent are British.

Why I Don't Believe In The Septuagint Peter J. Williams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmA2oQm ... u.be&t=107

[1] Peter J. Williams is a Hebrew, Syriac, Greek scholar and Warden of Tyndale House Cambridge.
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Re: αρχιερείς in Matt 26: 3 and Luke 22: 52

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:08 pm

Mindy wrote:C. Stirling Bartholomew,
I have questions:
Do Christians believe LXX?

Have not Christians inherited the Hebrew Old Testament? Or do both Jews and Christians read the same Hebrew OT?
Protestant bibles are for the most part translations of the Hebrew Masoretic Text (Jewish bible).

Catholics have a more inclusive canon[1]. Some Catholic bibles are translations of the Hebrew Masoretic Text and others translations of the Latin Vulgate.

The Eastern Orthodox Church (Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, ...) have a more inclusive canon. Some of the ancient greek translations collected in LXX are important in Eastern Orthodox liturgy (public worship).

Protestants generally use modern translations in the public reading and preaching.

Catholics generally use modern translations in the public reading and preaching.

Some Messianic congregations have public reading of the Hebrew Masoretic Text.

[1] canon -- collection of authoritative books used in worship, teaching and preaching.

Notice:To avoid offending the Greek gods I will take this discussion off the Textkit forum.



*** an extremely obscure point about scholarly use of the term Septuagint/LXX****

The modern printed and digital editions of the LXX include a diverse collection documents. The ancient translation of the seventy (LXX) was the Torah only. Now days someone with bible software searches for a word in the LXX and reports that νεανισκος (young man) appears 97 times in the LXX. This has the appearance of being a scholarly statement. But in fact it is pseudo-scholarship because the collection of documents in the digital LXX does not represent any sort of ancient historical entity. It is not a book that anyone used in the ancient world. Peter J. Williams suggests that we should stop making reference to the LXX as an entity because it is a recent modern fabrication. We know of a variety of ancient greek translations of the Hebrew Bible. There is no particular reason why we should give exclusive priority to the translations printed in our modern editions.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

C. S. Bartholomew
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Re: αρχιερείς in Matt 26: 3 and Luke 22: 52

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:36 pm

Mindy wrote:
Crosby is the only textbook I have. I didn't know it's Attic Greek.

I know little about the Septuagint. So I have not used this word.
Septuagint and LXX refer to the same thing. In popular contemporary language it refers a diverse collection Greek texts found in the modern published editions for example Alfred Rahlfs 1935. By contrast, Charles Thompson's 1808 English translation of The Septuagint Bible only covers the books found in the Hebrew canon. This illustrates the drift P.J. Williams was talking about. When somebody says Septuagint, we need to ask them exactly what they're talking about, most of time you'll discover that the people using the term haven't thought about it. The more technical terminology Old Greek (OG),Theodotion or proto-Theodotion, proto-Lucian, Aquila ... Symmachus is without problems either. It takes a short paragraph to describe precisely what is being referenced.

RE: Crosby is the only textbook I have. I didn't know it's Attic Greek.

It uses examples from Herodotus and the New Testament so it isn't exclusively Attic. Must be a good book, it is still being reprinted. Alpheus Crosby reads very much like a member of his generation.
Alpheus Crosby, the son of Dr. Asa and Abigail (Russell) Crosby, was born at Sandwich NH, October 13, 1810. After graduating from Dartmouth in 1827 be became preceptor of Moor's School for one year, then tutor in the College for three years. After two years spent In the study of theology at Andover he was recalled as professor in 1833. He resided In Hanover for some years after his resignation in the stone house, which he built in 1845, on the road over Cory Hill, but In 1857 he became the Principal of the State Normal School at Salem, Mass., and resigned that position In 1865. He died there April 17, 1874. He was an earnest scholar of wide interests, and published a Greek grammar, and an edition of Xenophon's Anabasis, besides several other smaller works.

Frederick Chase, A History of Dartmouth College and the Town of Hanover, New Hampshire
https://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyA ... pheus.html

postscript: Mindy, if you want to ask questions about Hebrew or other matters not pertaining to the Greek language you can contact me directly. I sent a private message with e-mail address.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Mindy

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Post by Mindy » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:34 am

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Mindy

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Post by Mindy » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:35 pm

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