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Mindy

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Post by Mindy » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:07 am

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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Exodus 10: 18 ηυξατο

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:54 pm

It depends on what pronunciation scheme you are using, modern, Erasmian, restored Koine or Classical. The lexical form of the verb (i.e., what you would normally look it up under in the dictionary or lexicon) is εὔχομαι. I would pronounce it ay-ooch-o-my (ay as in may).

I know of no professional recording of the LXX in any pronunciation scheme, and a quick google search turned up nothing.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

Mindy

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Post by Mindy » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:01 pm

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Re: Exodus 10: 18 ηυξατο

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:16 am

Mindy wrote:Thank you.

I learn Hebrew Torah every day. When I don't understand a verse, l read it both in English and Chinese. Sometimes I find that the translations are different. I wonder why? Which one is better?
Mindy, the answer to that question is quite complicated, and must be taken on a case by case basis.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

Mindy

Thanks

Post by Mindy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:58 am

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Re: Exodus 10: 18 ηυξατο

Post by Markos » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:17 pm

Mindy wrote:Is there an online audio Greek Old Testament?
Here is Exodus 10 from my favorite Modern Greek rendering of the LXX, Textkit's own Isaac Newton:

https://archive.org/details/NewRecording149_201801

But my all time favorite is this modified Erasmian of Vasile Stancu:

https://stancu.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/gen-gv.mp3

Mindy

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Post by Mindy » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:11 am

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Mindy

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Post by Mindy » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:00 am

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Re: Exodus 10: 18 ηυξατο

Post by Markos » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:03 am

Mindy wrote:Hello, Markos, please give me all the mp3 of the Greek Old Testament from this site: https://stancu.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/gen-gv.mp3 Now I have been learning Exodus in Hebrew. Meanwhile I want to learn some short verses in Greek. So I need Greek mp3 of Exodus. I have found audio Exodus 20 from the above site.
Hi, Mindy,

Vasile Stancu only did a few selections. He did not record Exodus 10. Here are all the audio files from his site:

http://www.vasile-stancu.ro/greaca_audio-en.htm

Outside of Textkit's-own-Isaac-Newton, whose recordings are being done right now in real time, I am sure that other LXX audio files exists, but like Barry I can't find them right now.

Mindy

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Post by Mindy » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:11 am

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Re: Exodus 10: 18 ηυξατο

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:22 am

Mindy wrote:in Greek:
37᾿Απάραντες δὲ οἱ υἱοὶ Ισραηλ ἐκ Ραμεσση εἰς Σοκχωθα εἰς ἑξακοσίας χιλιάδας πεζῶν οἱ ἄνδρες πλὴν τῆς ἀποσκευῆς,
from https://www.academic-bible.com/en/onlin ... 94606f33f/
I have failed to get the meaning of ἀποσκευῆς. Does it mean children or women and children?
In a military context πεζοί means "infantry". The others besides them - the "baggage (train)" as the Greek puts it - would have included not only women and children, but also other males who were no longer of military age or unfit for military service. ἀποσκευὴ refers to what you take along when you are traveling - luggage or baggage - and from the context of the story of complete relocation of a people, not only their weapons, but their whole community went along. If you read this ἀποσκευὴ as just in juxtaposition to the number of foot-soldiers, then it means only people (women, children and I think older or disabled males), but the meaning of the Greek is broader, refering to the whole train including possessions - not only for the trip, but for living their lives.

The Hebrew, perhaps, contrasts those who march with those that take smaller steps (and slow them down).
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Re: Exodus 10: 18 ηυξατο

Post by Altair » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:10 am

I learn Hebrew Torah every day. When I don't understand a verse, l read it both in English and Chinese. Sometimes I find that the translations are different. I wonder why? Which one is better?
As Barry said above, the answer to this is complicated, but let me clarify a few of the complications.

There is no text of either the old or new testament that is universally accepted as original. Rabbinic Judaism and probably Karaite Judaism agreed on a single text by the 7th-10th centuries, but there were already Greek, Syriac, and other translations important to Christian tradition that disagreed with them. Modern day Samaritans also use a different text.

I believe that the King James version was largely translated from the version accepted by Rabbinic Judaism, but the Septuagint was not. It was based on some other slightly different version or versions.

Another reason for discrepancies between translations is the simple fact that we don't always understand exactly what the ancient Hebrew means.
Another example: Jeremiah 46: 25 in Hebrew
...,כה אָמַר יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת אֱלֹהֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, הִנְנִי פוֹקֵד אֶל-אָמוֹן מִנֹּא

25 The LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saith: Behold, I will punish Amon of No,...(from the same Jewish website)
This English translation is literal.

the King James Version:
25The Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saith; Behold, I will punish the multitude of No,...
This translation isn't literal.

in Chinese:
万军之耶和华以色列的神说,我必刑罚挪的亚扪(埃及尊大之神)和法老,...
This translation is literal. It also paraphrases the verse.
I understand your Chinese quotes, 95% of the earlier Greek, and 30-60% of the Hebrew. My guess is that the phrase אָמוֹן מִנֹּא is ambiguous in Hebrew. The word נֹּא (挪) in מִנֹּא is probably a short reference to the Egyptian city of Thebes, which can also be referred to as נא אמון (e.g., Nahum 3:8). This latter name seems to be a transliteration of the Egyptian name Niwt-Imn, which means the "City of [the god] Amun".

The resources I can access quickly suggest that אָמוֹן can refer either to a "multitude" or to the god "Amun" (埃及尊大之神). Depending on which you choose and whether you are confident you know what נֹּא (挪) refers to, you will end up with a different translation. I even wonder whether there is some kind of pun going on in the Hebrew playing on the similarity of the sound of "the multitude of the city [of Amun]" and "Amun of the city [of the same name] "

Mindy

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Post by Mindy » Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:09 am

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Re: Exodus 10: 18 ηυξατο

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:03 pm

Mindy wrote:Altair mentioned Nahum 3: 8. Its translations are different.

the Hebrew verse:
...,ח הֲתֵיטְבִי, מִנֹּא אָמוֹן

Jewish literal translation:
8 Art thou better than No-amon,...

King James Version:
Art thou better than populous No,...

Chinese literal translation:
8 你岂比挪亚们强呢?...

挪亚们 = No-amon
So the Chinese translation agrees with the Jewish one.
נֹא: n.loc.; Eg. niy, nwt (ZÄS 70:82ff), nwt city (Erman-G. 2:210), cun. Niʾi (BzA 1:596f: Vycichl 82f), Hitt. Niya, Greek Ναὺ(κρατις): the Egyptian city of Thebes (RLAeR 791ff; Reicke-R. Hw. 1316; WThomas Archaeology 21ff); EgArm. נא מדינת the region of Thebes (Cowley Arm. Pap. 298b): נֹא אָמוֹן, Nut Amen Thebes, belonging to Amun (→ III אָמוֹן) Nah 38; > נֹא Nah 38 Ezk 3014-16, Sept. Διόσπολις, Tg., Vulg. Alexandria, Stummer JPOS 8:39; v.15 rd. נֹף Memphis Sept.; אָמוֹן מִנּאֹ Jr 4625 Amun of Thebes (Sept.* בְּנֹא; → Rudolph3 272). †

Koehler, L., Baumgartner, W., Richardson, M. E. J., & Stamm, J. J. (1994–2000). The Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon of the Old Testament (electronic ed., p. 657). Leiden: E.J. Brill.

The KJV is essentially following the Vulgate here:

numquid melior es ab Alexandria populorum...

Reading אָמ֔וֹן as though it derives from אמ (people) rather than as part of the place name derived from Egyptian.

The LXX (although I just heard a wonderful lecture on why we should abandon the use of that term):

Ἀμμών, ἡ κατοικοῦσα ἐν ποταμοῖς
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

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Re: Exodus 10: 18 ηυξατο

Post by Altair » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:57 pm

Mandy, what is the date of the Chinese translation you are using? The King James Version is about 400 years old, and biblical scholarship has advanced beyond it now. I wouldn't be at all surprised if your Chinese bible is more accurate. Also, the English in the King James Version is archaic and often has wording that is no longer easily understandable by modern speakers. I wouldn't suggest using it for serious scholarly purposes, even though it is probably fine for formal or private religious use.
The KJV is essentially following the Vulgate here:

numquid melior es ab Alexandria populorum...
Barry, what exactly does this mean? Is it "Are you really better than Alexandria of the people?" The meaning behind the last two words seems strange.

I also find the use of "Alexandria" quite surprising. The Alexandria I know about is nowhere near Thebes and didn't exist until Alexander came along. Surely, the translators of the Vulgate knew this. What am I missing?
נֹא: n.loc.; Eg. niy, nwt (ZÄS 70:82ff), nwt city (Erman-G. 2:210), cun. Niʾi (BzA 1:596f: Vycichl 82f), Hitt. Niya, Greek Ναὺ(κρατις): the Egyptian city of Thebes (RLAeR 791ff; Reicke-R. Hw. 1316; WThomas Archaeology 21ff); EgArm. נא מדינת the region of Thebes (Cowley Arm. Pap. 298b): נֹא אָמוֹן, Nut Amen Thebes, belonging to Amun (→ III אָמוֹן) Nah 38; > נֹא Nah 38 Ezk 3014-16, Sept. Διόσπολις, Tg., Vulg. Alexandria, Stummer JPOS 8:39; v.15 rd. נֹף Memphis Sept.; אָמוֹן מִנּאֹ Jr 4625 Amun of Thebes (Sept.* בְּנֹא; → Rudolph3 272). †
Thanks for these references, but some of them puzzle me. Isn't Ναύκρατις also a different city, with nothing to do with either Alexandria or Thebes? At least this reference seems to support that אָמוֹן מִנּאֹ means "Amun of Thebes."
> נֹא Nah 38 Ezk 3014-16, Sept. Διόσπολις, Tg., Vulg. Alexandria, Stummer JPOS 8:39
If this means that the Septuagint refers to Διόσπολις, this also an apparent calque of the Egyptian name, since Zeus and Amon were equated (Διόσπολις = City of Zeus = City of Amun = niwt imn = נֹא = נֹא אָמוֹן).
The LXX (although I just heard a wonderful lecture on why we should abandon the use of that term):

Ἀμμών, ἡ κατοικοῦσα ἐν ποταμοῖς
Would you elaborate on this? Why shouldn't we use LXX, and what does the quote have to do with it? In fact, what does the quote refer to? Is Ἀμμών meant as a city name? Why is ποταμοῖς in the plural? I thought the Nile was a single course at that distance from the delta.

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Re: Exodus 10: 18 ηυξατο

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:43 pm

Altair wrote:
The KJV is essentially following the Vulgate here:

numquid melior es ab Alexandria populorum...
Barry, what exactly does this mean? Is it "Are you really better than Alexandria of the people?" The meaning behind the last two words seems strange.
Not people, but peoples (note the genitive plural).
I also find the use of "Alexandria" quite surprising. The Alexandria I know about is nowhere near Thebes and didn't exist until Alexander came along. Surely, the translators of the Vulgate knew this. What am I missing?
Right. Not sure why Jerome would opt for that particular rendering. Of course, there was more than one Alexandria in ancient times besides the big famous one. It would be interesting to see if anybody has researched this.
נֹא: n.loc.; Eg. niy, nwt (ZÄS 70:82ff), nwt city (Erman-G. 2:210), cun. Niʾi (BzA 1:596f: Vycichl 82f), Hitt. Niya, Greek Ναὺ(κρατις): the Egyptian city of Thebes (RLAeR 791ff; Reicke-R. Hw. 1316; WThomas Archaeology 21ff); EgArm. נא מדינת the region of Thebes (Cowley Arm. Pap. 298b): נֹא אָמוֹן, Nut Amen Thebes, belonging to Amun (→ III אָמוֹן) Nah 38; > נֹא Nah 38 Ezk 3014-16, Sept. Διόσπολις, Tg., Vulg. Alexandria, Stummer JPOS 8:39; v.15 rd. נֹף Memphis Sept.; אָמוֹן מִנּאֹ Jr 4625 Amun of Thebes (Sept.* בְּנֹא; → Rudolph3 272). †
Thanks for these references, but some of them puzzle me. Isn't Ναύκρατις also a different city, with nothing to do with either Alexandria or Thebes? At least this reference seems to support that אָמוֹן מִנּאֹ means "Amun of Thebes."
I think the reference to Ναύκρατις is simply to show the Egyptian word, which actually means "city," preserved in a place name transliterated into Greek. I've never studied Egyptian, but that's what HALOT appears to be doing in this entry.
The LXX (although I just heard a wonderful lecture on why we should abandon the use of that term):

Ἀμμών, ἡ κατοικοῦσα ἐν ποταμοῖς
Would you elaborate on this? Why shouldn't we use LXX, and what does the quote have to do with it? In fact, what does the quote refer to? Is Ἀμμών meant as a city name? Why is ποταμοῖς in the plural? I thought the Nile was a single course at that distance from the delta.
Here is the actual lecture. It's quite entertaining, actually:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhmMKwl3KeE

ἐν ποταμοῖς translates בַּיְאֹרִ֔ים מַ֖יִם, a construct chain in the plural. Similarly the Vulgate, in fluminibus. The ancient translations are trying to be fairly literal here.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

Mindy

Thanks

Post by Mindy » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:22 am

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