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first declension practice

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:00 pm
by jaihare
καλὴ βουλή
καλῆς βουλῆς
καλῇ βουλῇ
καλὴν βουλήν
καλὴ βουλή

καλὰ βουλά
καλῇιν βουλῇιν
καλῇιν βουλῇιν
καλὰ βουλά
καλὰ βουλά

καλαὶ βουλαί
καλάων βουλάων
καλῇσι βουλῇσι
καλὰς βουλάς
καλαὶ βουλαί

==========

κλαγγή
κλαγγῆς
κλαγγῇ
κλαγγήν
κλαγγή

κλαγγά
κλαγγῇιν
κλαγγῇιν
κλαγγά
κλαγγά

κλαγγαί
κλαγγάων
κλαγγῇσι
κλαγγάς
κλαγγαί

==========

How's it look? Got a question about it, too. I notice that the contracted -ῶν and uncontracted -έων are alternative endings for the genitive plural. How common are each of the endings? Do we need to learn them all? What about the alternative -ῇς ending for the dative plural?

Thanks,
ΙΑΣΩΝ

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:25 pm
by jaihare
For those in our study group, I think it might be worthwhile to point out the interesting connection between the dative forms. Notice that all of them have ῃ in the termination.

(singular) δειν > (dual) δεινιν > (plural) δεινσι

From there, it's easy to remember that the dual adds -ιν while the plural adds -σι.

Feel free to post your experiments and exercises with the declension formation here. This all starts in Lesson III.

ΙΑΣΩΝ

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:38 pm
by Lex
I didn't see any problems with your conjugations.

Pharr mentions in note 6 to section 648 that "Forms in square brackets [ ] are rare, and need not be memorized".

Section 652 explains the use of the alternate dative plural forms. They both definitely should be memorized.

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:42 pm
by jaihare
Thanks. :)

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:56 am
by annis
jaihare wrote:For those in our study group, I think it might be worthwhile to point out the interesting connection between the dative forms. Notice that all of them have ῃ in the termination.

(singular) δειν > (dual) δεινιν > (plural) δεινσι
Ooh. For the dual the dative and genitive forms are identical. I wouldn't read too much into that similarity. And one major recent edition of the Iliad (West's Teubner), on the basis of epigraphic evidence, spells the plural dative without the iota subscript, -ησι.

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:33 am
by Ivansalgadogarcia
I didn't understand as well the book order, the "lesson I" is just an introduction?

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:30 pm
by jaihare
Ivansalgadogarcia wrote:I didn't understand as well the book order, the "lesson I" is just an introduction?
Yes, Lesson I is called "Introductory." The first assignment in the book (§1) is to learn the alphabet and its sounds. Pharr gives the Erasmian pronunciation. A presentation of the reconstructed pronunciation can be found here. I don't know if people think there is a need to learn one way or the other, but it's good to have both options. I think, as long as you can read it and make sense of it (no matter the pronunciation), that's good. I'll let others comment other ways.

However, for this thread, we're practicing the first noun declension, which begins in Lesson III (§8). Lay it out for us!! :)

ΙΑΣΩΝ

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:34 pm
by jaihare
φίλη
φίλης
φίλῃ
φίλην
φίλη

φίλα
φίλῃιν
φίλῃιν
φίλα
φίλα

φίλαι
φιλάων
φίλῃς / φίλῃσι
φίλας
φίλαι

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:49 am
by jaihare
Iván, where is your practice?!? :)

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:45 am
by Ivansalgadogarcia
δεινὴ κλαγγή
δεινῆς κλαγγῆς
δεινῇ κλαγγῇ
δεινὴν κλαγγήν
δείνὴ κλαγγἠ

δεινὰ κλαγγά
δεινῇιν κλαγγῇιν
δεινῇιν κλαγγῇιν
δεινὰ κλαγγά
δεινὰ κλαγγά

δειναὶ κλαγγαί
δεινῶν κλαγγῶν
δεινῇσι κλαγγῇσι
δεινὰς κλαγγάς
δειναὶ κλαγγαί

The contracted form of the genitive plural it's very frequent, I've read it in Hesiod maybe twice in the first lines. :) , however, I didn't realized that plural dative was almost the same in the masculine and feminine.

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:46 am
by jaihare
Ivansalgadogarcia wrote:δεινὴ κλαγγή
δεινῆς κλαγγῆς
δεινῇ κλαγγῇ
δεινὴν κλαγγήν
δείνὴ** κλαγγἠ

δεινὰ κλαγγά
δεινῇιν κλαγγῇιν
δεινῇιν κλαγγῇιν
δεινὰ κλαγγά
δεινά** κλαγγά

δειναὶ κλαγγαί
δεινῶν κλαγγῶν
δεινῇσι κλαγγῇσι
δεινὰς κλαγγάς
δειναί** κλαγγαί
** Notice the accent on the indicated forms.
Welcome to the practice! Isn't it fun!?! :)
The contracted form of the genitive plural it's very frequent, I've read it in Hesiod maybe twice in the first lines. :) , however, I didn't realized that plural dative was almost the same in the masculine and feminine.
Do you mean in the first and second declensions?

I'm used to the Koine, so I don't know the dative plural ending yet. I think of it as -αις in the first declension and -οις in the second. Now I'm learning -ῃσι and -ῃς for the first declension. I haven't looked at the second declension forms yet. I've just started looking at the present tense verb in -ω, adding the dual forms (-ετον) to my memory. I'm used to the others, since they are identical to those of the Koine. :)

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:55 pm
by Ivansalgadogarcia
Thanks for the observations on accents!! :lol: What about the masculines of the first declension?

αἰχμητής
αἰχμητᾶω
αἰχμητῇ
αἰχμητήν
αἰχμητά

αἰχμητά
αἰχμητῇιν
αἰχμητῇιν
αἰχμητά
αἰχμητά

αἰχμηταί
αἰχμητάων
αἰχμητῇσι, -ῇς
αἰχμητάς
αἰχμηταἰ

It's so similar to Koiné, except by the plural dative, form that now I recognize, hehehe 8), paragraph 675 on book is very interesting about the vocatives, however, this form is easy to recognize by context.

Where is everybody? Let's practice. :)

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:22 pm
by jaihare
ἀδελφέ μου, I've been here everyday (throughout the day, whenever I get time), and I don't see posts from you. ;)

I'm also pleased by the similarity (thus far) to the Koine. On my own, I've been working slowly (yet excitedly), and I did section 22 today. I want to make up some vocab cards to carry with me as I go. In the meantime, I'm also making up a paradigm spreadsheet with noun declensions and verb conjugations as we go along. Hopefully I'll keep that up. It may be really useful in the future.

Regards,
ΙΑΣΩΝ
(I put it in all caps 'cause it looks better. Ἰάσων just doesn't have the aesthetic appeal that ΙΑΣΩΝ has!)

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:30 pm
by annis
jaihare wrote:(I put it in all caps 'cause it looks better. Ἰασών just doesn't have the aesthetic appeal that ΙΑΣΩΝ has!)
Tsk, tsk. You're a budding Homerist now — spell it Ἰήσων. ;)

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:36 pm
by annis
Also, obscure grammatical point —
jaihare wrote:ἀδελφέ μου,
The vocative of ἀδελφός is accented irregularly:  ἄδελφε.

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:49 pm
by jaihare
annis wrote:
jaihare wrote:(I put it in all caps 'cause it looks better. Ἰασών just doesn't have the aesthetic appeal that ΙΑΣΩΝ has!)
Tsk, tsk. You're a budding Homerist now — spell it Ἰήσων. ;)
Really?!?!

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:51 pm
by jaihare
annis wrote:Also, obscure grammatical point —
jaihare wrote:ἀδελφέ μου,
The vocative of ἀδελφός is accented irregularly:  ἄδελφε.
:? Crap.

Does it still grab the proclitic accent? ἄδελφέ μου?

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:54 pm
by jaihare
annis wrote:
jaihare wrote:(I put it in all caps 'cause it looks better. Ἰασών just doesn't have the aesthetic appeal that ΙΑΣΩΝ has!)
Tsk, tsk. You're a budding Homerist now — spell it Ἰήσων. ;)
I accented it incorrectly in the first place anyway. It also is acute on the alpha. Either way, it surprises me that it is written with eta in Homer. Kinda thrilling, really. :)

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:34 pm
by annis
jaihare wrote:Does it still grab the proclitic accent? ἄδελφέ μου?
Enclitic, and yes.

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:36 pm
by jaihare
annis wrote:
jaihare wrote:Does it still grab the proclitic accent? ἄδελφέ μου?
Enclitic, and yes.
I really need to read better! I can't wait til the book gets here and I can actually sit with it and pay better attention. This is hard to do with a PDF!

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:54 pm
by jaihare
annis wrote:
jaihare wrote:Does it still grab the proclitic accent? ἄδελφέ μου?
Enclitic, and yes.
I know it's kinda getting ahead of ourselves, but I'm just wondering if the same forms exist for words like ἡμεῖς/ὑμεῖς and ἡμῶν/ὑμῶν in Epic as in the Koine?

Thanks,
ΙΗΣΩΝ

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:10 pm
by jaihare
ΑΓΛΑΟΣ, -Η, -ΟΝ, bright, shining, splendid, glorious

ἀγλαή
ἀγλαῆς
ἀγλαῇ
ἀγλαήν
ἀγλαή

ἀγλαά
ἀγλαῇιν
ἀγλαῇιν
ἀγλαά
ἀγλαά

ἀγλααί
ἀγλαάων
ἀγλαῇσι
ἀγλαάς
ἀγλααί

Any mistakes?

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:10 pm
by jaihare
Shaking with anticipation... both for the arrival of my new book (yea!!) and for the start of this study.

I keep getting returned e-mails from the Pharr-e list. Why is that? I sent two and I've gotten like four rejection notices. Should we not be able to test the mail server already?

Re: first declension practice

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:24 pm
by anphph
jaihare wrote:Shaking with anticipation... both for the arrival of my new book (yea!!) and for the start of this study.

I keep getting returned e-mails from the Pharr-e list. Why is that? I sent two and I've gotten like four rejection notices. Should we not be able to test the mail server already?
I don't know if the list is working properly yet. I was waiting for some sign of life myself.