Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

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seanjonesbw
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Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seanjonesbw »

Welcome to the Odyssey Reading Group! Anyone is welcome to join in at any time, regardless of their Greek ability. If you’re itching to explore Homer’s epic tale of survival, adventure, love, lust, kinship, betrayal and spooky dead people, hop on in, you’ll be very welcome. People who have some Greek but have never tried reading Homer before are doubly welcome.

Please feel free to ask any question in this thread, no matter how basic you think it is, and we will try to help you with an answer.
More Information About the Group
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Check the introductory thread for a description of how the group works.

We’re working from Geoffrey Steadman’s Odyssey Books 6-8, a freely-available pdf with vocabulary and notes

Resources for deeper study are available in the group dropbox folder

We started at Book 6. Here are all the threads so far:

Book 6
Lines 1-23
24-47
48-70
71-92
93-118
119-140
141-161
162-185
186-210
211-238
239-261
262-294
295-331 [end]

Book 7
1-26
27-47
48-77
78-102
103-132
Greek text lines 133-157
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133 ἔνθα στὰς θηεῖτο πολύτλας δῖος Ὀδυσσεύς. 134 αὐτὰρ ἐπεὶ δὴ πάντα ἑῷ θηήσατο θυμῷ, 135 καρπαλίμως ὑπὲρ οὐδὸν ἐβήσετο δώματος εἴσω. 136 εὗρε δὲ Φαιήκων ἡγήτορας ἠδὲ μέδοντας 137 σπένδοντας δεπάεσσιν ἐυσκόπῳ ἀργεϊφόντῃ, 138 ᾧ πυμάτῳ σπένδεσκον, ὅτε μνησαίατο κοίτου. 139 αὐτὰρ ὁ βῆ διὰ δῶμα πολύτλας δῖος Ὀδυσσεὺς 140 πολλὴν ἠέρʼ ἔχων, ἥν οἱ περίχευεν Ἀθήνη, 141 ὄφρʼ ἵκετʼ Ἀρήτην τε καὶ Ἀλκίνοον βασιλῆα. 142 ἀμφὶ δʼ ἄρʼ Ἀρήτης βάλε γούνασι χεῖρας Ὀδυσσεύς, 143 καὶ τότε δή ῥʼ αὐτοῖο πάλιν χύτο θέσφατος ἀήρ. 144 οἱ δʼ ἄνεῳ ἐγένοντο, δόμον κάτα φῶτα ἰδόντες· 145 θαύμαζον δʼ ὁρόωντες. ὁ δὲ λιτάνευεν Ὀδυσσεύς· 146 “Ἀρήτη, θύγατερ Ῥηξήνορος ἀντιθέοιο, 147 σόν τε πόσιν σά τε γούναθʼ ἱκάνω πολλὰ μογήσας 148 τούσδε τε δαιτυμόνας· τοῖσιν θεοὶ ὄλβια δοῖεν 149 ζωέμεναι, καὶ παισὶν ἐπιτρέψειεν ἕκαστος 150 κτήματʼ ἐνὶ μεγάροισι γέρας θʼ ὅ τι δῆμος ἔδωκεν· 151 αὐτὰρ ἐμοὶ πομπὴν ὀτρύνετε πατρίδʼ ἱκέσθαι 152 θᾶσσον, ἐπεὶ δὴ δηθὰ φίλων ἄπο πήματα πάσχω.” 153 ὣς εἰπὼν κατʼ ἄρʼ ἕζετʼ ἐπʼ ἐσχάρῃ ἐν κονίῃσιν 154 πὰρ πυρί· οἱ δʼ ἄρα πάντες ἀκὴν ἐγένοντο σιωπῇ. 155 ὀψὲ δὲ δὴ μετέειπε γέρων ἥρως Ἐχένηος, 156 ὃς δὴ Φαιήκων ἀνδρῶν προγενέστερος ἦεν 157 καὶ μύθοισι κέκαστο, παλαιά τε πολλά τε εἰδώς·

seanjonesbw
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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seanjonesbw »

You’ll have to indulge me here. I’ve become interested in a little mystery connecting the Odyssey and Welsh literature. The mist (θέσφατος ἀήρ) that Athena cloaks Odysseus in before he enters the town reminded me of the “magic mist” that’s a recurring device in Celtic literature, which either conceals a character embarking on a quest, or is a physical barrier through which they must pass, often into the Otherworld (Annwfn in Welsh, more famously Tír na nÓg in Irish). The Otherworld is characterised by the uncanny and can be dangerous, but is often also a ‘happy otherworld’ of plenty, similar to Scheria.

In one particular medieval tale (collected in the ‘Mabinogion’, but that’s a disputed term), Geraint mab Erbin, Geraint asks directions from a stranger, who tells him to avoid one road because “there is a hedge of mist, and within it are enchanted games… and the court of Earl Owain”. Geraint ignores his advice and goes to Owain’s court, where he finds a large orchard, washes, and is feasted. He then travels through the hedge of mist to take part in the enchanted games, where he wins, banishes the mist and returns home to enjoy his “warlike fame”.

The mist itself is obviously quite common in Greek literature - on Hylander and mwh’s advice I’ve started reading the Theogony and was greeted on the very first page by the muses “κεκαλυμμέναι ἠέρι πολλῷ” - but I was struck by the several similarities between Geraint’s story and Odysseus’ experiences in Scheria. As there’s no evidence of the reception of Greek literature in high medieval Wales, I can only assume that it is a coincidence that these international folk motifs have come together in a similar way. Mist in particular seems to be a very ancient marker of liminality in folk literature.

A nice epilogue - while I was looking into this, I found a bit in Pausanias (Description of Greece 10.22.11) where the Celtic general Brennus attacks the pass at Thermopylae, taking the Phocians guarding it by surpise, because the Gaulish army was concealed until the last moment… by mist (τήν τε ὁμίχλην κατὰ τοῦ ὄρους καταχεῖσθαι πολλὴν).

seanjonesbw
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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seanjonesbw »

Some notes/questions:

138 ᾧ πυμάτῳ - I assume this is a standard case of Smyth 1042?
142 ἀμφὶ δʼ ἄρʼ Ἀρήτης βάλε γούνασι χεῖρας - for anyone using Steadman, he has ἀμφὶ with γούνασι but this is surely tmesis?
148 τοῖσιν θεοὶ ὄλβια δοῖεν / ζωέμεναι - LSJ has ὄλβια as adverbial here, but Stanford suggests it's better to take it as a noun, citing 8.413 "καὶ σὺ φίλος μάλα χαῖρε, θεοὶ δέ τοι ὄλβια δοῖεν." I present no opinion but merely offer up this morsel for your delectation.

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by mwh »

138 Yes.
142 Yes. (Not that there’s much difference.)
148 is interesting. I think this is a case where there’s a slight shift, calling for retroactive readjustment. ὄλβια is first understood as direct object of δοῖεν as at 8.413, but the appended ζωέμεναι, while adding little, converts it into a somewhat awkward internal accusative, “may the gods grant them to have a prosperous life.”
I trust you in turn are duly delectated.

seanjonesbw
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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seanjonesbw »

mwh wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:49 am 148 is interesting. I think this is a case where there’s a slight shift, calling for retroactive readjustment. ὄλβια is first understood as direct object of δοῖεν as at 8.413, but the appended ζωέμεναι, while adding little, converts it into a somewhat awkward internal accusative, “may the gods grant them to have a prosperous life.”
I trust you in turn are duly delectated.
Delectatable.

seanjonesbw
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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seanjonesbw »

Odysseus' supplication (146-152):

“Ἀρήτη, θύγατερ Ῥηξήνορος ἀντιθέοιο,
σόν τε πόσιν σά τε γούναθʼ ἱκάνω πολλὰ μογήσας
τούσδε τε δαιτυμόνας· τοῖσιν θεοὶ ὄλβια δοῖεν
ζωέμεναι, καὶ παισὶν ἐπιτρέψειεν ἕκαστος
κτήματʼ ἐνὶ μεγάροισι γέρας θʼ ὅ τι δῆμος ἔδωκεν·
αὐτὰρ ἐμοὶ πομπὴν ὀτρύνετε πατρίδʼ ἱκέσθαι
θᾶσσον, ἐπεὶ δὴ δηθὰ φίλων ἄπο πήματα πάσχω.”

He addresses Arete by name, which he's only just learned from Athena, and shows he knows the name of her father (Alcinous' brother!). Then he supplicates Alcinous, her knees and the feasters in that order, slipping in the reason for his supplication (ἱκάνω πολλὰ μογήσας). He wishes them (τοῖσιν) happiness, and that they might pass on their honour-gift (γέρας) from the δῆμος. Finally, he gets out the tiny violin and sells his sob story, including a plural imperative (ὀτρύνετε) to give him a lift home.

There are a few interesting things to note. What does it tell us that his supplication of Nausicaa in Book 6 is 36 lines (149-185) while this only takes him 7 lines? Nausicaa, giving him instructions, says of Alcinous "τὸν παραμειψάμενος μητρὸς περὶ γούνασι χεῖρας / βάλλειν ἡμετέρης", so why does Odysseus give so much prominence to him ("σόν τε πόσιν") and the feasters ("τούσδε τε δαιτυμόνας") in his supplication, including his wishes for the future which seem to be directed at the δαιτυμόνας in particular? What exactly is the γέρας, and why does Odysseus will think it will be convincing to wish them the ability to pass it and their possessions on to their children (contrast this with his divination that Nausicaa wanted a husband)? Is Arete sitting with her spindle while all of this happens (cf. 6.305-6 ἡ δʼ ἧσται ἐπʼ ἐσχάρῃ ἐν πυρὸς αὐγῇ, / ἠλάκατα στρωφῶσʼ ἁλιπόρφυρα, θαῦμα ἰδέσθαι)?

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by Hylander »

LSJ glosses γέρας here as "privilege, prerogative conferred on kings or nobles," I think it should probably be though of in terms of material wealth as much as regal authority. This concept of the "prerogative" of the nobility as conferred by the δῆμος calls to mind the famous speech of Sarpedon in Iliad 12.310 ff., in which he insists that it's due to his and Glaukos' assumption of responsibility for courageously leading the Lycian troops out in front in battle that they receive honors from the Lycians such as the best cuts of meat and the most cups of wine. Alkinoos, of course, is not leading the troops in battle -- no need for that in the isolated paradise of Scheria -- but his and the other nobles' γέρας is conferred by the δῆμος as the reward for leadership.

For the form of the supplication, compare the opening of the Iliad, where the priest of Apollo Chryses supplicates the Greeks and the sons of Atreus in particular for the release of his daughter, Iliad 17-21

Ἀτρεΐδαι τε καὶ ἄλλοι ἐϋκνήμιδες Ἀχαιοί,
ὑμῖν μὲν θεοὶ δοῖεν Ὀλύμπια δώματ᾽ ἔχοντες
ἐκπέρσαι Πριάμοιο πόλιν, εὖ δ᾽ οἴκαδ᾽ ἱκέσθαι:
παῖδα δ᾽ ἐμοὶ λύσαιτε φίλην, τὰ δ᾽ ἄποινα δέχεσθαι,
ἁζόμενοι Διὸς υἱὸν ἑκηβόλον Ἀπόλλωνα.

1. Vocative address
2. μεν Wishing them well
3. δε Request

Odysseus doesn't use μεν . . . δε, but rather αυταρ, to articulate the supplication and get from the well-wishing to the request. But the pattern is the same.

So before getting down to the request, Odysseus has to wish everyone well. That's an essential piece in the supplication. And what else would he wish, other than a happy life and the continued prosperity of their line after them? Kind of like a toast.

Priam's supplication of Achilles in Iliad 24 to release not his son but his son's body mirrors Chryses' supplication in Iliad 1 to release his living daughter, in a sort of ring form, but it's very different, a direct appeal to Achilles to think of his aging father in Phthia. Perhaps the departure from the standard supplication formula is deliberate and would have registered with the audience, enhancing the poignance of the passage.

As I think has been discussed, in Book 1 of the Aeneid, Aeneas' arrival at the court of Dido in Carthage pointedly evokes Odysseus' arrival among the Phaeacians. He too arrives surrounded in mist, in which a different goddess, his mother Venus, has cloaked him for protection as he passes among the Carthaginians, and the mist dissipates when he stands before Dido. So there's another mistification for you. But of course in Vergil's case it's not an independently conceived mist -- Vergil is all but explicitly channeling Homer.
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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seanjonesbw »

Glad to see you've been lured to the group! Re γέρας - so a kind of status within the community that affords certain privileges, rather than a title with associated powers. Interesting that this should be 'passed on' to children rather than having to be earned with each generation. I wonder whether the implication is 'may your children be as deserving of your γέρας as you are'.

To extend your thought about sticking to and departing from the standard supplication formula - what I feel really stands out in this particular supplication is that two (female) characters, Nausicaa and Athena/child, have already told Odysseus that he should go straight past the king, Alcinous, and supplicate the queen, Arete. Nausicaa doesn't give a reason why Arete is more important to supplicate than Alcinous. Athena implies that her status among the people of Scheria means she has a lot of sway.

But in the supplication itself, and afterwards, she is actually very passive, almost like Odysseus is supplicating a statue of a goddess, but in fact directing his speech to the people around him (the focus on her knees as the object of supplication among πόσιν and δαιτυμόνας I thought was notable). I think this is bolstered by the fact that this line

σόν τε πόσιν σά τε γούναθʼ ἱκάνω πολλὰ μογήσας (147)

mirrors his supplication of the 'river ἄναξ'/god in Book 5:

σόν τε ῥόον σά τε γούναθʼ ἱκάνω πολλὰ μογήσας. (5.449)

and the fact that Athena tells him that the Phaeacians treat Arete like a god (I remember too Paul's interesting comment in a previous thread about Odysseus praying to Nausicaa 'like a god' [θεῷ ὣς εὐχετοῴμην, 8.467], and obviously his comparison of her to Artemis in Book 6):

καὶ λαῶν, οἵ μίν ῥα θεὸν ὣς εἰσορόωντες
δειδέχαται μύθοισιν, ὅτε στείχῃσʼ ἀνὰ ἄστυ (7.71-2)

I'm not sure how to tie these loose ends together adequately without calling in Herr Doktor Freud, but unlike other supplications of mortals in Homer, Arete seems to be treated as an object of devotion rather than a subject who will take an active role in his deliverance. Autenrieth links her name to ἀράομαι, and she does seem to fulfil the function of a final object of his prayers (with Nausicaa as a comic mini-boss). He keeps trying to find the right person/god to supplicate, and finally gets there in Book 7.

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by Hylander »

Interesting that this should be 'passed on' to children rather than having to be earned with each generation.


This is an aristocratic, hereditary society. In the natural order of things, sons are expected to inherit not just the material goods but also the physical characteristics and moral character of their fathers. And father to son inheritance is of course an important theme in the Odyssey.
this line

σόν τε πόσιν σά τε γούναθʼ ἱκάνω πολλὰ μογήσας (147)

mirrors his supplication of the 'river ἄναξ'/god in Book 5:

σόν τε ῥόον σά τε γούναθʼ ἱκάνω πολλὰ μογήσας. (5.449)
This is probably a formula, in which a two-syllable masculine word ending in a closed syllable can be substituted.

The focus on the knees: the act of supplication involved the ritual gesture of kneeling before the person being supplicated and laying hold of the knees. For example, in Iliad 1.407, Achilles asks his mother Thetis to clasp Zeus' knees in asking for retribution against Agamemnon, and this is what she does in lines 500, 512. I'm not sure precisely how you accomplish this if you are supplicating a river god, though.

Looking in Cunliffe's Lexicon of the Homeric Dialect (much more useful than Autenrieth; I recommend it highly if you want to continue reading Homer), there is a list of instances where the knees are grasped in suppication under the word γονυ:
3. Of clasping the knees in supplication: λαβέ [μιν]
γούνων (by the knees) Α407. Cf. Α500, 512, 557, Ζ45,
Ο76, Υ468, Φ65, 68, 71 Χ345, Ω357, 465, 478: μητρὸς
ποτὶ γούνασι χεῖρας βάλλειν ζ310. Cf. ζ142, 147,
169, η142, κ264, 323, χ310, 339, 342, 365.--So with
a word of seizing to be supplied: λισσέσκετο γούνων
Ι451. Cf. κ481, χ337.--Sim.: περὶ γούνατ’ ἐμὰ
στήσεσθαι λισσο-μένους Λ609. Cf. Σ457, Υ463: σὰ
γούναθ’ ἱκάνω ε449, η147, Ἀμφινόμου πρὸς γοῦνα
καθέζετο (as putting himself under his protection)
σ395. Cf. γ92 = δ322, ι266, ν231.--Also λίσσομ’ ὑπὲρ
γούνων Χ338.--Of kissing the knees in supplication:
ἥ οἱ γούνατ’ ἔκυσσε Θ371. Cf. ξ279.
Not just in Homer. LSJ γόνυ:
freq. of clasping the knees in earnest supplication, “ἥψατο γούνων” 1.512; “ἑλεῖν, λαβεῖν γούνων” 21.71, 1.407, etc.; “τῶν γουνάτων λαβέσθαι” Hdt.9.76; ποτὶ (v.l. περὶ) or “ἀμφὶ γούνασί τινος χεῖρας βαλεῖν” Od.6.310, 7.142; “περὶ γόνυ χέρας ἱκεσίους ἔβαλον” E.Or.1414, cf. Ph.1622, etc.; “τὰ σὰ γούναθ᾽ ἱκάνομαι” Il.18.457, cf. Od.7.147, etc.; “κιχανόμενοι τὰ σὰ γοῦνα ἱκόμεθ᾽” 9.266; “ἀντίος ἤλυθε γούνων” Il.20.463; “γόνυ σὸν ἀμπίσχειν χερί” E.Supp.165; “σοῖς προστίθημι γόνασιν ὠλένας” Id.Andr.895; ἐς γούνατά τινι or “τινος πεσεῖν” Hdt.5.86, S.OC1607; “ἀμφὶ γόνυ τινὸς πίπτειν” E.Hec.787; γόνυ τινός or πρὸς γόνυ προσπίπτειν ib.339, HF79; “γόνασί τινος προσπίπτειν” Id.Or.1332 (but προσπίτνω σε γόνασιν on my knees, S.Ph.485); πίπτειν πρὸς τὰ γ. τινος, τινι, Lys.1.19, D.19.198; also “γούνων λίσσεσθαι” Il.9.451; “ἐλλιτανεύειν” Od.10.481; “γουνάζεσθαι” Il.22.345; “ἄντεσθαι πρὸς τῶν γονάτων” E.Med.710; “ἱκετεῦσαι πρὸς τ. γ.” D.58.70.
γουνάζομαι , fut. -σομαι: aor. 1
A.“γουνασάμεσθα” Orph.A.618, subj. “γουνάσσηαι” A.R.4.747, cf. Orph.A.943: (γόνυ):—Ep. Verb, clasp another's knees (v. sub “γόνυ” 1.2): hence, implore, entreat, abs., Il. 11.130: c. inf., τῶν ὕπερ . . γουνάζομαι οὐ παρεόντων ἑστάμεναι κρατερῶς in whose name . . I implore you to stand your ground, 15.665; “νῦν δέ σε πρὸς πατρὸς γουνάζομαι” Od.13.324; “νῦν δέ σε τῶν ὄπιθεν γ., . . πρός τ᾽ ἀλόχου καὶ πατρός” 11.66; μή με . . γούνων γουνάζεο entreat me not by [clasping] my knees, Il.22.345.
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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seanjonesbw »

Hylander wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:13 pm This is probably a formula, in which a two-syllable masculine word ending in a closed syllable can be substituted.
There is surely a point at which a formula becomes allusion though, the oral poet calling to mind a previous line to equate one circumstance with another? These are the only two verses in Homer that begin with σόν τε or end with ἱκάνω πολλὰ μογήσας.
Hylander wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:13 pm The focus on the knees: the act of supplication involved the ritual gesture of kneeling before the person being supplicated and laying hold of the knees. For example, in Iliad 1.407, Achilles asks his mother Thetis to clasp Zeus' knees in asking for retribution against Agamemnon, and this is what she does in lines 500, 512. I'm not sure precisely how you accomplish this if you are supplicating a river god, though.
Looking back, I wasn't very clear about this point. You're absolutely right about the mention of knees not being unusual, and obviously Odysseus' supplication of Nausicaa begins with the very words "γουνοῦμαί σε, ἄνασσα" (6.149). It's more that I think the three objects of the supplication here (the husband, the knees, the guests) make an interesting triptych, with Arete alone addressed by synecdoche (because she is being physically grasped).

The phrase γούναθʼ ἱκάνω only occurs three times in Homer. The first instance is Book 5, where Odysseus addresses his supplication to the 'current and knees' of the river god. This is the second, and the third he is supplicating Athena in the form of a shepherd, where he supplicates just the knees (σοὶ γὰρ ἐγώ γε / εὔχομαι ὥς τε θεῷ καί σευ φίλα γούναθʼ ἱκάνω., getting the ὥς τε θεῷ in as a little joke). Whether we are meant to make the association consciously or not, I think Arete is being equated with these two other gods in this passage, but that in this case Odysseus' appeal is to the whole μεγαρον, whereas in the other two instances he hopes for help only from the person/god he is supplicating. Almost like he is supplicating 'through' her to the rest of the room.
Hylander wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:13 pm Looking in Cunliffe's Lexicon of the Homeric Dialect (much more useful than Autenrieth; I recommend it highly if you want to continue reading Homer)
Thanks, I actually do use Cunliffe when I'm reading, or just the online LSJ - I noticed this in Autenrieth because I was searching lsj.gr for Ἀρήτη, which gives you results for several dictionaries at the same time (LSJ, Middle Liddell, Bailly abrégé, Page, Dvoretsky, Autenrieth, Frisk etc.). I highly recommend it to anyone who hasn't used it. It doesn't parse like Logeion but if you know the headword it's very useful and has the best formatting for the big LSJ I've encountered. You can also do English-Greek with Woodhouse from the same search bar.

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seanjonesbw »

seanjonesbw wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:25 am I'm not sure how to tie these loose ends together adequately without calling in Herr Doktor Freud
Newton (The Rebirth of Odysseus) on how this supplication could be taken as a ritual 'rebirth' of Odysseus after his trials.
Rick Newton, The Rebirth of Odysseus wrote: Odysseus crouches before the queen and grasps her knees, then sits at the hearth, and is finally raised by Alcinous, who escorts him to a seat. Other supplication scenes contain some of these steps, but few other accounts-and no other Homeric account-include them all.
...
These departures from the traditional features of a supplication make it clear that Homer is not presenting a 'model' scene.
...
The specific irregularities of Odysseus' supplication - his sudden appearance at Arete's feet, his rapid release of her, and his immediate and prolonged contact with the ground-are unparalleled in extant supplication scenes. But his actions do share similarities with another ritual. Diodorus Siculus (4.39) gives an account of the adoption of Heracles by Hera. In order to adopt the newly-apotheosized hero, "Hera climbed upon a bed and, drawing Heracles toward her body, released him through her clothing to the ground, in imitation of an actual birth" (διὰ τῶν ἐνδυμάτων ἀφεῖναι πρὸς τὴν γῆν, μιμουμένην τὴν ἀληθινὴν γένεσιν). In similar fashion Odysseus appears suddenly at Arete's knees, as if being released from under her clothing, and proceeds directly along the ground. These similarities suggest that, within this scene of supplication, the poet is inserting allusions to a ritual of rebirth.9
Radcliffe Edmonds, in Mystic Cults in Magna Graecia (p77), suggest that Arete is like a queen of the dead in Odysseus' Orphic katabasis.

Douglas Frame (Hippota Nestor) compares Arete with Athena Polias, whose shrine was in Erechtheus' palace (cf. 7.81) with a statue of Athena (he speculates) seated holding a distaff.
Douglas Frame, Hippota Nestor III.8 wrote:Arete’s name is well suited to her role. A verbal adjective from aráomai, “to pray,” the name Ἀρήτη (masculine Ἄρητος) means “prayed for,” as of a late-born child long “prayed for” by its parents. [20] This meaning fits Arete, who was the only child of her father Rhexenor, who is now dead. But {351|352} the name also suggests the meaning “prayed to,” and this fits Arete’s real role, which is to be supplicated by Odysseus. [21] The name is a perfect combination of overt and suggested meanings, corresponding to the queen’s overt and hidden roles.

§3.12 Let us pursue the idea that when Odysseus grasps Arete’s knees, she has in effect become Athena Polias. This idea has implications for what the ancient image of Athena Polias, which is nowhere described for us, actually was. For at the moment of supplication Arete is represented as sitting at the hearth, holding the distaff, and spinning.

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

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There is surely a point at which a formula becomes allusion though, the oral poet calling to mind a previous line to equate one circumstance with another? These are the only two verses in Homer that begin with σόν τε or end with ἱκάνω πολλὰ μογήσας.
In the Homeric poems we have only a small fraction of the oral hexameter tradition, so I'd be cautious about inferring a conscious equation of one circumstance to the other. We really don't know very well how the mind of the author of the Odyssey worked.

And maybe I'm unimaginative, but I'm highly skeptical of the Newton, Edmonds and Frame interpretations. They've let their imaginations run wild. For one thing, these interpretations are mutually inconsistent -- Arete giving birth to Odysseus, Arete as queen of the dead, Arete as Athena Pallas.

I don't think there's anything beyond a more or less realistic narrative here. I think if any of these interpretations were right, we would find much more in the text to support them. And I don't think any of them adds anything to our appreciation of the text as it stands.

Odysseus already has one katabasis; he doesn't need another. And in his explicit katabasis, the gloomy place of the dead, populated by ghosts, is very different from happy and fortunate (at least for now) Scheria.

Unless you assume that this whole episode is an Athenian interpolation, how could an Ionian poet in the 7th century or at least before 500 know of a fifth-century Athenian statue (if it's not pure speculation, which is a specialty of Frame)?
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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by Paul Derouda »

Hylander wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:01 pm In the Homeric poems we have only a small fraction of the oral hexameter tradition, so I'd be cautious about inferring a conscious equation of one circumstance to the other. We really don't know very well how the mind of the author of the Odyssey worked.

And maybe I'm unimaginative, but I'm highly skeptical of the Newton, Edmonds and Frame interpretations. They've let their imaginations run wild. For one thing, these interpretations are mutually inconsistent -- Arete giving birth to Odysseus, Arete as queen of the dead, Arete as Athena Pallas.
How do you mean, inconsistent? Maybe we have a female trinity here!? But joking aside, I agree with Hylander on this, I don't think the Odyssey calls for far-fetched interpretations. If you like to make those, you better reach for Joyce's Ulysses (I never got farther than the first chapter).

"When a formula becomes an allusion" - I'd say in some cases inside the same work it can be rather confidently argued that we're dealing with allusions, or variations on a theme, but if we assume that there are literary references from one work to another it becomes much more difficult, because without having a larger surviving corpus it's difficult to say which ones are banal formulas whose sparse attestation is mere chance, and which ones are, say, conscious allusions to the Iliad by the Odyssey poet. So I think Hylander is right to be cautious.

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seanjonesbw »

Let your hair down! It’s fun to let your imagination run wild sometimes.

Hylander indirectly raises the good and useful question of whether archetypal readings add to our appreciation of the text. I’ll do my best to make the case for them.

I find these readings often get misinterpreted as an attempt to find a key to symbols in the text, turning it into a roman-à-clef where Arete=Athena/Persephone and Odysseus=Orpheus so we can transfer the attributes from one to the other and then Aha! we finally understand the text. If it was ever the intention of the Odyssey poet to write a roman-à-clef the ‘clef’ itself is long gone, so such analysis is worthless. The fact that a child with no knowledge of revolutionary Russia can read and enjoy Animal Farm shows how such keys are a dispensable layer of meaning in the text.

Instead, it’s better to treat archetypal readings as an attempt to explore the larger ‘plate tectonics’ of the plot, the deep currents, to create answers to the question ‘why is the narrative constructed this way, and what effect does it have on the reader?’. Then, importantly, ‘what can we learn by comparing it with other stories using similar motifs?’.

Archetypal readings don’t try to uncover secret codes, but to put a name to and describe common features of stories or characters which have a particular effect. Lots of people don’t know the term ‘middle eight’ in pop music, even if they’ve heard thousands of them, but know the exact feeling created by this departure from the rest of the song when it’s pointed out to them. I’ve read interviews with songwriters who admit they don’t know what a middle eight is, but include one because it ‘feels right’. Archetypal readings look for what ‘feels right’ in a text and ask why.

To take a modern(ish) example most people will know - A Christmas Carol can be also be read as a (Jungian) ‘rebirth’ narrative. A miser is reborn as a generous and kind man after meeting three (well, four) ghosts. There’s an allegorical layer to the text which we’re most used to dealing with - love of one’s fellow man is more important than money - but this allegory could be (and has been) represented in countless different ways.

Dickens could have used a single event to convince Scrooge to become a good man, so why bother with three ghosts? Because Scrooge is beyond simple redemption. It will take an extraordinary spiritual journey to show him the error of his ways. Whether you want to call it this or not, Scrooge must be ‘reborn’, to have a complete moral overhaul, and it requires supernatural intervention to get him there. We would ‘feel’ it was inadequate if he didn’t make this journey.

Indeed, one of the first things he says after he returns to his own bed is
’I don’t know how long I have been among the Spirits. I don’t know anything. I’m quite a baby. Never mind. I don’t care. I’d rather be a baby.
Not because Dickens wants us to think ‘Aha! A Jungian Rebirth!’ but because it plays into the underlying idea of regeneration whatever label you wish to put on it. I.e. it makes no difference to the effect of an archetype whether we recognise it consciously.

Question is - do we gain anything by consciously considering this as a ‘rebirth’ rather than just plot development? I think we do. It invites the questions ‘why does the character need to be reborn’, ‘how are they reborn’ and ‘what change has occurred after rebirth’, which in turn encourages us to compare different texts and narratives.

After he falls asleep, Scrooge, like Peer Gynt or Bill Murray’s character in Groundhog Day, must travel to a spiritual realm/enchanted alternate reality where he goes on a journey of moral self-realisation. The story of his own life is recounted in the process and at the end of it he sees his own death. He supplicates the spirit of death (Christmas Yet to Come), falling to his knees:
‘Am I that man who lay upon the bed?’ he cried upon his knees

‘Good Spirit,’ he pursued, as down upon the ground he fell before it, ‘your nature intercedes for me, and pities me’

Holding up his hands in a last prayer to have his fate reversed
The spirit returns him to his own bed when he promises “I will honour Christmas in my heart, and try to keep it all the year.”

To come back to Odysseus (finally!), I find it profitable to take Scrooge’s rebirth and compare it to Odysseus’ journey. Odysseus travels to an enchanted realm (Scheria, magical orchard &c.) where characters are ‘close to the gods’ and, near death, he falls asleep, is washed and made beautiful, supplicates the queen, recounts the story of his journey, regains his strength and is magically transported home. What connects Newton, Edmonds and Frame is that they afford Arete a supernatural status which gives her the power to effect Odysseus’ rebirth.

What separates the Odyssey most clearly from modern narratives is that Odysseus doesn’t undergo a (Christian) moral transformation. He doesn’t realise he has done something wrong and needs to change his ways. Instead, he supplicates the great-granddaughter of Poseidon, whom he has wronged by blinding Polyphemus, and later his slate is wiped clean and he is allowed to continue his life. I think this speaks to an important difference between Greek and Christian/post-Christian conceptions of moral resolution, which I find enhances my appreciation of the text. Why is Odysseus' offence against Poseidon so bad that he needs this extraordinary intervention? Something I would like to continue exploring.

I appreciate that such readings are not to everyone's taste and have become quite unfashionable. Newton, Edmonds and Frame do themselves no favours by taking the thinking much too far and treating it too literally (as did their predecessors Frazer and Jung, let alone the Dan Browns of the world), but I agree with their common finding that Arete occupies a semi-divine status which is important in effecting Odysseus’ nostos. Treating these things as accidental or interchangeable features of the plot diminishes the power of the text for me - it would not 'feel right' (to me) if Athens replaced Scheria and Arete was just a normal mortal queen giving him a lift, in the same way that Scrooge talking to three blokes in the street wouldn't have the same effect as three ghosts.

Tl;dr - all I'm saying is give archetypes a chance.

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seanjonesbw »

Paul Derouda wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:12 pm "When a formula becomes an allusion" - I'd say in some cases inside the same work it can be rather confidently argued that we're dealing with allusions, or variations on a theme, but if we assume that there are literary references from one work to another it becomes much more difficult, because without having a larger surviving corpus it's difficult to say which ones are banal formulas whose sparse attestation is mere chance, and which ones are, say, conscious allusions to the Iliad by the Odyssey poet. So I think Hylander is right to be cautious.
But my example is only 500 lines away in the same work. I don't think it matters if this is a conscious allusion (unless we 'rebirth' the dead author, too) - the same phrase has been chosen, which naturally connects the two instances. There are other formulas for supplication which fill a verse, after all. Otherwise we descend into never being able to assign similar meaning to similar word choice and the whole of the Odyssey is just a collage.

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seneca2008 »

seanjonesbw wrote: I don't think it matters if this is a conscious allusion (unless we 'rebirth' the dead author, too) - the same phrase has been chosen, which naturally connects the two instances.
Has no one been listening to what I say about "authorial intentions" and reception theory? Of course it doesn't matter! :D :D

It's not only possible that we interpret texts in entirely different ways from their "authors" it is inevitable. Sean if you find an a(i)illusion I see nothing wrong in it. There is a difference however between advancing a particular interpretation of a few lines and a general theory of how homeric formulae seem to work. Although maybe some Jungian argument might work here too.

You all have set out different methodologies for interpretation but I wouldn't seek to privilege any of them. What I find fascinating is not so much what Newton, Frame and Edmonds said as why and what it reveals about their thought. If you aren't interested in them or the reception of Homer, pass along nothing to see here. There is more secondary literature on Homer than we have time to read anyway.

Hylander with the greatest of respect "We really don't know very well how the mind of the author of the Odyssey worked." If this were true we couldn't possibly be having this discussion.

The desire for an "ur understanding" receives a concrete instantiation in the farrago that now sits on top of the Athenian Acropolis. Hundreds of years of history and meaning were swept away in trying to recover some symbol of the past appropriated, to a nineteenth century conception of a nation state. We are all impoverished by such an approach.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by Hylander »

I guess there's no harm in trying to find occult archetypes in the Odyssey or anything else. But personally, it doesn't enrich my experience of the Odyssey. For me, the Odyssey doesn't need that -- it stands on its own.

And the mutual inconsistency of the archetypes that have been discovered in this passage makes attempts to find archetypes seem more like a pointless intellectual game than a search for meaning and depth in the poem. Too much of that and it turns into a fog of clutter that obscures the broad sweep of a long poem, rather than something that enhances the experience of reading the Odyssey.
Why is Odysseus' offence against Poseidon so bad that he needs this extraordinary intervention?


I won't spoil it for you, but you will find out in Book 9. Wait till you get to the end of the Scheria episode in Book 13 to see just how angry a god like Poseidon can get.
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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seanjonesbw »

Hylander wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:26 pm And the mutual inconsistency of the archetypes that have been discovered in this passage makes attempts to find archetypes seem more like a pointless intellectual game than a search for meaning and depth in the poem.
Yes I think the danger with archetypal analysis, and perhaps the reason it's had such a fall from grace, is that the tail starts wagging the dog when you go looking for them. The leap from Jung to Freud is sometimes very short, and as Seneca points out more is often revealed about the writer of the article than the text itself (Newton in particular may benefit from some psychoanalysis).

Much richer I think to use it to discuss thoughts and experiences you've already had when reading, than to start with archetypes and go searching for them. We all note the similarities in feelings evoked by separate passages in Homer - I don't think archetypal analysis really amounts to much more than this in essence, though the paraphernalia that comes with it can be obnoxious.
seneca2008 wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:50 pm Has no one been listening to what I say about "authorial intentions" and reception theory? Of course it doesn't matter! :D :D
Reception theory? Sounds interesting, someone should write a book about it.

I got about 5 posts into that Helen Keller thread before I abandoned all hope. Maybe I should read on!

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

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The desire for an "ur understanding" receives a concrete instantiation in the farrago that now sits on top of the Athenian Acropolis. Hundreds of years of history and meaning were swept away in trying to recover some symbol of the past appropriated, to a nineteenth century conception of a nation state. We are all impoverished by such an approach.
You have to recognize that this is an attitude that is as historically contingent as anything, dating only to the last decades of the twentieth century, at the earliest. And the point about a nineteenth century conception of a nation state seems to me not quite to the point. The Greeks have been proud of their heritage as a people -- sometimes to the point of chauvinism, to be sure -- since the time of Homer and before. The Iliad and the Odyssey themselves are brimming with that pride. That's why the Catalogue of Ships was so popular in antiquity.
Last edited by Hylander on Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by Hylander »

Much richer I think to use it to discuss thoughts and experiences you've already had when reading, than to start with archetypes and go searching for them.
I agree with that, and I think looking out for concrete parallels and connections within the Odyssey and its literary and cultural environment (including the Iliad and other archaic Greek poetry and even its broader "reception" in later antiquity) is more productive than straining to find tenuous mythical archetypes.

It's an almost trite truism that we'll obviously never be able to experience the Odyssey as its original audience (whoever that was) did and we will never completely recover the poet's intentions in their entirety (though I think that by alertly reading the poem we can discern some of that). But I think the body of scholarship seeking to elucidate its historical context is helpful in enhancing our experience of the poem today. I don't see that as "clutter" at all.
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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seneca2008 »

Hylander wrote: You have to recognize that this is an attitude that is as historically contingent as anything, dating to the last decades of the twentieth century, at the earliest.
You have been reading Gadamer. I knew it! :D

(I think reservations about removing the Ottoman and Christian accretions to the acropolis were voiced somewhat earlier but I will see if I can find any references. But certainly it would be extraordinary if archaeologists in the mid twentieth century thought the excavations were a model of scientific archaeology. )
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seanjonesbw »

Hylander wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:26 pm I won't spoil it for you, but you will find out in Book 9. Wait till you get to the end of the Scheria episode in Book 13 to see just how angry a god like Poseidon can get.
That's very sweet of you but Robert Fitzgerald ruined the surprise for me one languorous summer some 15 years ago! If anything, with time I've become more confused by Poseidon's rage and the Olympian psychodrama that surrounds it.

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by Hylander »

When they're provoked by mortals, the anger of Olympian gods tends to be disproportionate, at least to our eyes (and, I think, to the ancient Greeks, too) -- even in the absence of human culpability, as Actaeon found out. The selfish and almost childish indifference of the gods to the suffering of human mortals is a persistent theme running through the Iliad, and we see it in Sophocles (Ajax, Trachiniae), too. In the Odyssey, Zeus seems to rise above this, embracing a more equitable conception of justice, at least for Odysseus, but other divinities can be maliciously spiteful or else benignly supportive without any apparent regard for proportion or merit.

But put yourself in Poseidon's shoes -- if you were an earth-shaking god, wouldn't you be a bit miffed too if some mortal poked out your son's only eye with a red-hot stake?
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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seanjonesbw »

Paul Derouda wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:12 pm If you like to make those, you better reach for Joyce's Ulysses (I never got farther than the first chapter).
It's a punishing book. Not enjoyable in any ordinary sense, rather like kneeling naked in the snow and whipping yourself. But just as unforgettable.

You might find comfort in our friend Carl Jung's review of the book from 1932!
Carl Jung wrote:Ulysses is a book which pours along for seven hundred and thirty-five pages, a stream of time of seven hundred and thirty-five days which all consist in one single and senseless every day of Everyman, the completely irrelevant 16th day of June 1904, in Dublin — a day on which, in all truth, nothing happens. The stream beings in the void and ends in the void. Is all of this perhaps one single, immensely long and excessively complicated Strindbergian pronouncement upon the essence of human life, and one which, to the reader’s dismay, is never finished?

Perhaps it does touch upon the essence of life; but quite certainly it touches upon life’s ten thousand surfaces and their hundred thousand color gradations. As far as my glance reaches, there are in those seven hundred and thirty-five pages no obvious repetitions and not a single hallowed island where the long-suffering reader may come to rest. There is not a single place where he can seat himself, drunk with memories, and from which he can happily consider the stretch of the road he has covered, be it one hundred pages or even less… But no! The pitiless and uninterrupted stream rolls by, and its velocity or precipitation grows in the last forty pages till it sweeps away even the marks of punctuation.

It thus gives cruelest expressions to that emptiness which is both breath taking and stifling, which is under such tension, or is so filled to bursting, as to grow unbearable. This thoroughly hopeless emptiness is the dominant note of the whole book. It not only begins and ends in nothingness, but it consists of nothing but nothingness. It is all infernally nugatory.

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seanjonesbw »

Hylander wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:24 pm But put yourself in Poseidon's shoes -- if you were an earth-shaking god, wouldn't you be a bit miffed too if some mortal poked out your son's only eye with a red-hot stake?
I suppose it would depend if my son was planning to eat him or not.

What's the Greek for 'a bit miffed'?

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

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On the question of restoration vs. leaving things as they were found, you can twist yourself in knots thinking about this.

Many of the most famous, "iconic" works of ancient sculpture were assembled from fragments found during the Renaissance by contemporary sculptors who specialized in doing this, and are really composite works of art that are as much or more a product of the Italian Renaissance as of antiquity. No one today would suggest undoing the fragments and exhibiting them without the Renaissance accretions.

But in the Munich Glyptotek, you can see the remains of the pediment sculptures that once decorated the Temple of Aphaia on Aegina. The sculptures were carted off to Bavaria at the instance of Ludwig I around 1811, much as the Acropolis marbles were carted off to Britain in the same period. Once they were in Munich, Ludwig engaged the Icelandic-Danish neoclassical sculptor Bertel Thorvaldsen to "restore" the sculpture, which he did like a Renaissance restorer, creating a work of art of his own imagination out of the fragments. Thorvaldsen was. after his teacher Canova, the leading neoclassical sculptor in that era, but today he is less highly appreciated (except in Denmark) as interest in neoclassical sculpture has waned.

At some point relatively recently, in keeping with contemporary ideology, Thorvaldsen's restoration was dismantled, and the naked fragments are now on display, along with a photo of Thorvaldsen's restoration. But when I saw the pitifully dismembered fragments and the photo of Thorvaldsen's magnificent reconstruction together with them, I have to admit I regretted the loss of Thorvaldsen't beautiful sculptural ensemble, even if it may have been nothing like the original pediment sculptures as they could be seen in antiquity.
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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by Hylander »

I suppose it would depend if my son was planning to eat him or not.
Don't forget, Odysseus had no need to stray into the Cyclops' territory. He did it out of pure idle curiosity, losing several of his men in the process. To be sure, the Cyclops violated all the norms of hospitality. But again, if you were an earth-shaking god, you wouldn't care about human moral or ethical values -- you would only be concerned about avenging your son.
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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seanjonesbw »

Hylander wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:43 pm Don't forget, Odysseus had no need to stray into the Cyclops' territory. He did it out of pure idle curiosity, losing several of his men in the process. To be sure, the Cyclops violated all the norms of hospitality. But again, if you were an earth-shaking god, you wouldn't care about human moral or ethical values -- you would only be concerned about avenging your son.
I think you've put your finger on what I find so difficult about the gods in Homer (ignoring the differences between the Iliad and Odyssey) - that they are in some ways 'sympathetic' characters motivated by apparently human desires, while in other ways they are dangerously inhuman, elemental, unreasonable (this is perhaps simplification to the point of absurdity but I've already written one essay in this thread). More the better on that front I say, but I can't decide whether to treat Poseidon's rage as an existential threat, central to the power of the tale, or whether appeasing him is simply a 'McGuffin', as they say in the movies. Perhaps my views on this will develop as I read through, but he seems quite comic to me.
Hylander wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:37 pm But in the Munich Glyptotek, you can see the remains of the pediment sculptures that once decorated the Temple of Aphaia on Aegina.
I've only been once (in 2013) and really enjoyed my visit, but I thought the Glyptothek itself was a very forbidding place - almost a neoclassical mausoleum, surrounded by those acres of tightly trimmed grass. Beautiful light though - it would be a wonderful place to sit and draw.

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

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I think you've put your finger on what I find so difficult about the gods in Homer (ignoring the differences between the Iliad and Odyssey) - that they are in some ways 'sympathetic' characters motivated by apparently human desires, while in other ways they are dangerously inhuman, elemental, unreasonable (this is perhaps simplification to the point of absurdity but I've already written one essay in this thread).
I have to admit, the Greek array of capricious, selfish, spiteful, amoral gods, often at odds with one another, usually indifferent to human suffering, but sometimes arbitrarily favoring certain human individuals, seems much more consistent with my experience than a single just, benevolent and providential deity.
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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seanjonesbw »

Hylander wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:22 am array of capricious, selfish, spiteful, amoral gods, often at odds with one another, usually indifferent to human suffering, but sometimes arbitrarily favoring certain human individuals, seems much more consistent with my experience
I agree Textkit members can be quite challenging at times.

I hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving! Sending my own thanks across the Atlantic (and the North Sea, Paul [and down the A1 Seneca]) for everyone's continuing help with reading Homer.

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seneca2008 »

hylander wrote:But put yourself in Poseidon's shoes -- if you were an earth-shaking god, wouldn't you be a bit miffed too if some mortal poked out your son's only eye with a red-hot stake?
I think it is worthy of note that both Arete and Alcinous are Poseidon's descendants too, he is a grandson and she a great granddaughter and therefore Alcinous' niece. Perhaps this plays some part in the retribution meted out to the Phaeacians?

One thing that has occurred to me in reading these threads is our desire to find consistency. I wonder whether in part this is because we are readers as opposed to listeners. Certainly one finds inconsistencies in Tragedy which can be understood not as lapses but as a kind of logic which carries the audience through certain passages but will be forgotten later on when the plot needs to advanced in a different direction. (I wish I could remember some instances of this but it arose when I studied Trachiniae and maybe Ajax.) So perhaps this is a feature of oral poetry. It could equally be an aesthetic choice that consistency was just not that important.

We are told (by Athena as a young girl) that Arete is the key figure for Odysseus to win over to gain Phaeacian aid and Odysseus duly supplicates her by grasping her knees. It's natural for us to look for the fulfilment of this influence but perhaps for all the high regard Arete is held in perhaps the tradition (Poet ) couldn't bring itself to show her as actually being in control. Perhaps it all happens behind closed doors (7.346-7):

Ἀλκίνοος δ' ἄρα λέκτο μυχῷ δόμου ὑψηλοῖο,
πὰρ δὲ γυνὴ δέσποινα λέχος πόρσυνε καὶ εὐνήν.

Alternatively her importance might be being presented from a young female point of view. Nausicaa is the first to tell of us of the importance of her Mother and Athene impersonating a young girl amplifies it. Even in this wonderland, of course, it may not reflect the actuality of male domination.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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seneca2008
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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seneca2008 »

seanjonesbw wrote:I've only been once (in 2013) and really enjoyed my visit, but I thought the Glyptothek itself was a very forbidding place - almost a neoclassical mausoleum, surrounded by those acres of tightly trimmed grass. Beautiful light though - it would be a wonderful place to sit and draw.
We were possibly there at the same time! I visited on my way to Bayreuth for the bicentenary.
hylander wrote:But in the Munich Glyptotek, you can see the remains of the pediment sculptures that once decorated the Temple of Aphaia on Aegina. The sculptures were carted off to Bavaria at the instance of Ludwig I around 1811, much as the Acropolis marbles were carted off to Britain in the same period. Once they were in Munich, Ludwig engaged the Icelandic-Danish neoclassical sculptor Bertel Thorvaldsen to "restore" the sculpture, which he did like a Renaissance restorer, creating a work of art of his own imagination out of the fragments. Thorvaldsen was. after his teacher Canova, the leading neoclassical sculptor in that era, but today he is less highly appreciated (except in Denmark) as interest in neoclassical sculpture has waned.
I think these examples from the plastic arts illustrate perfectly the dilemma of interpretation. The controversy that rages over reconstructions involving colour clearly demonstrates this. When science points in one direction and aesthetics in another how do we decide. This is not so different from textual hermeneutics. Perhaps we don't have to decide but just follow Derrida and say "vive la Différance (sic)"
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by jeidsath »

The science isn't very good in the existing color reconstructions. They are more or less just German grad students with UV lights. It's a case of poor science pointing one way, and aesthetics warning you that something is up.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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seneca2008
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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seneca2008 »

jeidsath wrote:The science isn't very good in the existing color reconstructions. They are more or less just German grad students with UV lights. It's a case of poor science pointing one way, and aesthetics warning you that something is up.
For those who want a more nuanced approach these links might be useful. Sure there is disagreement when was there not in scholarly debate?

https://oxfordre.com/classics/classics/ ... 135-e-8118

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018 ... type=owned

http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-07-51.html
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by jeidsath »

Brinkmann's UV techniques can detect color variation, but exact information about original pigmentation is beyond them (mostly, something like Egyptian blue on a sarcophagus is an exception). Your first link has a decent paragraph listing the different types of spectroscopy available in the Research Methodology section. This could recover original pigmentation, in theory, if it has not been fully eroded, but is invasive and expensive. Brinkmann describes his technique, however, as microscopy + raking light + UV + UVR.

Microscopy can have some very cool results for a very well-preserved artifact. For example, see this photograph in this article from Abbe. But Brinkmann's various reconstructions go quite a bit beyond what was preserved by time. He's putting on a good exhibit for a museum.

By all means, go back to more "nuanced" discussions like Talbot's. However, I think that the word must mean something different to you than to me.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seanjonesbw »

seneca2008 wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:33 pm Perhaps we don't have to decide but just follow Derrida and say "vive la Différance (sic)"
Please, no Derrida, I beg you! I'll have nightmares.
seneca2008 wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:00 pm One thing that has occurred to me in reading these threads is our desire to find consistency. I wonder whether in part this is because we are readers as opposed to listeners. Certainly one finds inconsistencies in Tragedy which can be understood not as lapses but as a kind of logic which carries the audience through certain passages but will be forgotten later on when the plot needs to advanced in a different direction. (I wish I could remember some instances of this but it arose when I studied Trachiniae and maybe Ajax.) So perhaps this is a feature of oral poetry. It could equally be an aesthetic choice that consistency was just not that important.
I think you make an interesting point about the difference in the experience of narrative when you read and when you listen to a story - I remember reading something, though I can't find it, about how we allow ourselves to assume that a playwright like Brecht is able to introduce deliberate inconsistencies to challenge the viewer, or Nabokov etc. etc. in writing, but inconsistencies even in Shakespeare we tend to view as an oversight or lack of sophistication because we don't have 'proof' that he deliberately left them in. You're right that 'local logic', or whatever dramaturgs call it, is often more important in our experience of a performed text than 'global logic', although plot holes are always much more obvious the second time you watch a film - I wonder how many times someone might have heard these epics in a lifetime, and how close together?

I suppose our default position is to assume consistency and sense (unless we're reading Derrida!), then probe the inconsistencies to find a satisfactory way of incorporating them into our understanding of the text? Characters mysteriously coming back to life in the Iliad seem to require a different response from inconsistencies of character (or 'inconsistent inconsistencies', as Aristotle says).

p.s. I am very sorry to see that the forum has updated and your head is now about a tenth of its former size. I can hardly even see your look of inscrutable fatigue any more.

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by mwh »

I don’t want to stir the pot, but on the Latin Poetry board I’ve reminded our seneca of Frederick Crews’ Postmodern Pooh and its opening spoof essay on Derridadaism.

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by seanjonesbw »

I'll check it out, Michael! But to assume, momentarily, the character of an elbow-patched, pipe-smoking grad student at a 70s faculty party - there can surely be no greater parodist of Derrida than Derrida himself.

Edit: I should probably add that while Derrida is easily mocked, I found that the soul-grinding hardship of Signsponge did make me ask some useful questions about my own reading (as well as my own will to live).

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Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 133-157

Post by des2021 »

seanjonesbw wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:46 pm You’ll have to indulge me here. I’ve become interested in a little mystery connecting the Odyssey and Welsh literature. The mist (θέσφατος ἀήρ) that Athena cloaks Odysseus in before he enters the town reminded me of the “magic mist” that’s a recurring device in Celtic literature, which either conceals a character embarking on a quest, or is a physical barrier through which they must pass, often into the Otherworld (Annwfn in Welsh, more famously Tír na nÓg in Irish). The Otherworld is characterised by the uncanny and can be dangerous, but is often also a ‘happy otherworld’ of plenty, similar to Scheria.

Early on in this plague a friend contacted me via email with a link to an on line course in mediaeval welsh and I was starting to read the Mabinog or is it Mabinogion I recall that can set specialists teeth on edge. Though I never really know what people get so angry about I suspect Welsh Nationalism is in there somewhere.

You posted some time back and maybe this isn't the place. But it struck me that the mist that a similarity is that the mist Athena places around Odysseus has a double effect. It not only disguises Odysseus so nobody can recognise him until she allows it. It also prevents Odyssesus from recognising famous landmarks. Everything looks different like the upside down. The mist penetrates the veil between worlds.

Not sure if this is the sort of discussion allowed here or if you are still here so I'll leave it there

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