Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Are you reading Homeric Greek? Whether you are a total beginner or an advanced Homerist, here you can meet kindred spirits. Besides Homer, use this board for all things early Greek poetry.
seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 314
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seanjonesbw » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:44 am

Welcome to the Odyssey Reading Group! Anyone is welcome to join in at any time, regardless of their Greek ability. If you’re itching to explore Homer’s epic tale of survival, adventure, love, lust, kinship, betrayal and spooky dead people, hop on in, you’ll be very welcome. People who have some Greek but have never tried reading Homer before are doubly welcome.

Check the introductory thread for a description of how the group works.

We’re working from Geoffrey Steadman’s Odyssey Books 6-8, a freely-available pdf with vocabulary and notes
Resources
Show
An introduction to Book 6 and a list of resources for deeper study are available in the group dropbox folder
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 314
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seanjonesbw » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:51 am

Lines 295-331
Show
295 ἔνθα καθεζόμενος μεῖναι χρόνον, εἰς ὅ κεν ἡμεῖς 296 ἄστυδε ἔλθωμεν καὶ ἱκώμεθα δώματα πατρός. 297 αὐτὰρ ἐπὴν ἡμέας ἔλπῃ ποτὶ δώματ ̓ ἀφῖχθαι, 298 καὶ τότε Φαιήκων ἴμεν ἐς πόλιν ἠδ ̓ ἐρέεσθαι 299 δώματα πατρὸς ἐμοῦ μεγαλήτορος Ἀλκινόοιο. 300 ῥεῖα δ ̓ ἀρίγνωτ ̓ ἐστί, καὶ ἂν πάϊς ἡγήσαιτο 301 νήπιος· οὐ μὲν γάρ τι ἐοικότα τοῖσι τέτυκται 302 δώματα Φαιήκων, οἷος δόμος Ἀλκινόοιο 303 ἥρως. ἀλλ ̓ ὁπότ ̓ ἄν σε δόμοι κεκύθωσι καὶ αὐλή, 304 ὦκα μάλα μεγάροιο διελθέμεν, ὄφρ ̓ ἂν ἵκηαι 305 μητέρ ̓ ἐμήν· ἡ δ ̓ ἧσται ἐπ ̓ ἐσχάρῃ ἐν πυρὸς αὐγῇ, 306 ἠλάκατα στρωφῶσ ̓ ἁλιπόρφυρα, θαῦμα ἰδέσθαι, 307 κίονι κεκλιμένη· δμωαὶ δέ οἱ εἵατ ̓ ὄπισθεν. 308 ἔνθα δὲ πατρὸς ἐμοῖο θρόνος ποτικέκλιται αὐτῇ, 309 τῶ ὅ γε οἰνοποτάζει ἐφήμενος ἀθάνατος ὥς. 310 τὸν παραμειψάμενος μητρὸς περὶ γούνασι χεῖρας 311 βάλλειν ἡμετέρης, ἵνα νόστιμον ἦμαρ ἴδηαι 312 χαίρων καρπαλίμως, εἰ καὶ μάλα τηλόθεν ἐσσί. 313 εἴ κέν τοι κείνη γε φίλα φρονέῃσ ̓ ἐνὶ θυμῷ, 314 ἐλπωρή τοι ἔπειτα φίλους ἰδέειν καὶ ἱκέσθαι 315 οἶκον ἐϋκτίμενον καὶ σὴν ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν.” 316 ὣς ἄρα φωνήσας ̓ ἵμασεν μάστιγι φαεινῇ 317 ἡμιόνους· αἱ δ ̓ ὦκα λίπον ποταμοῖο ῥέεθρα. 318 αἱ δ ̓ εὖ μὲν τρώχων, εὖ δὲ πλίσσοντο πόδεσσιν· 319 ἡ δὲ μάλ ̓ ἡνιόχευεν, ὅπως ἅμ ̓ ἑποίατο πεζοὶ 320 ἀμφίπολοί τ ̓ Ὀδυσεύς τε, νόῳ δ ̓ ἐπέβαλλεν ἱμάσθλην. 321 δύσετό τ ̓ ἠέλιος καὶ τοὶ κλυτὸν ἄλσος ἵκοντο 322 ἱρὸν Ἀθηναίης, ἵν ̓ ἄρ ̓ ἕζετο δῖος Ὀδυσσεύς. 323 αὐτίκ ̓ ἔπειτ ̓ ἠρᾶτο Διὸς κούρῃ μεγάλοιο· 324 “κλῦθί μευ, αἰγιόχοιο Διὸς τέκος, Ἀτρυτώνη· 325 νῦν δή πέρ μευ ἄκουσον, ἐπεὶ πάρος οὔ ποτ ̓ ἄκουσας 326 ῥαιομένου, ὅτε μ ̓ ἔρραιε κλυτὸς ἐννοσίγαιος. 327 δός μ ̓ ἐς Φαίηκας φίλον ἐλθεῖν ἠδ ̓ ἐλεεινόν.” 328 ὣς ἔφατ ̓ εὐχόμενος, τοῦ δ ̓ ἔκλυε Παλλὰς Ἀθήνη. 329 αὐτῷ δ ̓ οὔ πω φαίνετ ̓ ἐναντίη· αἴδετο γάρ ῥα 330 πατροκασίγνητον· ὁ δ ̓ ἐπιζαφελῶς μενέαινεν 331 ἀντιθέῳ Ὀδυσῆϊ πάρος ἣν γαῖαν ἱκέσθαι.
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 314
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seanjonesbw » Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:20 am

Friends - sorry for my absence. I would love to say that I've been doing something urgent and exciting but I've actually just been distracted by British politics over the last few weeks.

This week's reading takes us up to the end of Book 6, so I think there's scope for a bit of a review of Book 6 before we leave for Alcinous' palace as well as discussion of the text itself. There are a few things that I'd like to explore further before we move on.

Montcombroux has brought to my attention in the previous thread that there are people reading along with the group who are going through the Greek but who don't post. It was my ambition for the group when I set it up to be as inclusive as possible, but I've still not found a way to provide a space for people to ask questions about the text at the same time as the broader discussion we normally have. Answers on a postcard, please (seriously, if anyone has any ideas they would be gratefully received either here or by private message). Maybe I should do a poll to find out more about the people who read along but don't post.

New threads tend to kill old threads so I'll keep this going until next Friday (4th Oct) then move on to Book 7.
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 314
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seanjonesbw » Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:20 pm

Two things to start us off:

Firstly, I really am a dreadful dunce when it comes to metre - Hainsworth says of "ἄστυδε ἔλθωμεν" (296) that "emendations (ἄστυδ' ἀν-, ἄστυδ' έσ- ... ἄστυ δι-) seek to obviate the hiatus which is not defended, as elsewhere in this position, by 'une coupe nette du sens' (Chantraine, Grammaire, i 89)". Is he just saying that these emendations cover the hiatus but don't make sense?

While we're on Hainsworth, when he discusses Nausicaa's departure he presents this strange opinion (p.314):

"Nausicaa drives away and, but for a routine epilogue at the beginning of vii and a brief re-entry at viii 457-68, out of the story. This resolute dismissal by the poet of a sympathetic character cannot be other than an indication of his attitude towards her. The scene by the river is an episode, no more, a necessary and well-elaborated part of the οἰκονομία of the poem. The poet draws in outline an indulgent portrait of a well-bred girl: but there is no emotional involvement, least of all on the part of the hero. See introduction to vi."

The underlying assumptions about the relationship between poet and character are bizarre - is he suggesting that the poet has inherited a character they don't like and so limited her involvement or that the poet responsible for creating Nausicaa has somehow gone off her?
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by Aetos » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:14 pm

seanjonesbw wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:20 pm
Firstly, I really am a dreadful dunce when it comes to metre - Hainsworth says of "ἄστυδε ἔλθωμεν" (296) that "emendations (ἄστυδ' ἀν-, ἄστυδ' έσ- ... ἄστυ δι-) seek to obviate the hiatus which is not defended, as elsewhere in this position, by 'une coupe nette du sens' (Chantraine, Grammaire, i 89)". Is he just saying that these emendations cover the hiatus but don't make sense?
I think what he's saying is that in other instances of hiatus, the difficulty with the hiatus is often removed by "une coupe nette du sens" - a clear break in sense. In this instance, however, it is not. There is no break in sense between ἀστυδε and ἔλθωμεν.

seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 314
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seanjonesbw » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:20 pm

Thank you! That makes perfect sens.
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by Aetos » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:38 pm

seanjonesbw wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:20 pm
While we're on Hainsworth, when he discusses Nausicaa's departure he presents this strange opinion (p.314):

"Nausicaa drives away and, but for a routine epilogue at the beginning of vii and a brief re-entry at viii 457-68, out of the story. This resolute dismissal by the poet of a sympathetic character cannot be other than an indication of his attitude towards her. The scene by the river is an episode, no more, a necessary and well-elaborated part of the οἰκονομία of the poem. The poet draws in outline an indulgent portrait of a well-bred girl: but there is no emotional involvement, least of all on the part of the hero. See introduction to vi."

The underlying assumptions about the relationship between poet and character are bizarre - is he suggesting that the poet has inherited a character they don't like and so limited her involvement or that the poet responsible for creating Nausicaa has somehow gone off her?
I've been reading Mark Edwards' book Homer:Poet of the Iliad, and in chapter 6 he deals with Homer's use of story patterns and myth. In the case of Nausicaa, he mentions that Woodhouse ("The Composition of Homer's Odyssey")calls this the "Winning the Wife" story pattern which Homer modifies for his own narrative. Viewed in this light, Homer is telling a story which will delight his audience (after all, a visit to fairy-land should be delightful!) but also needs to provide a way for Odysseus to finally leave fairy-land and return to Ithaca. The audience knows that Odysseus is destined to make his way back to Penelope, so Nausicaa has to go, but the picture he paints, within the constraints of his own narrative, is still a beautiful one.

seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 314
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seanjonesbw » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:08 am

I think it's a good idea to consider how the Odyssey is underpinned with folklore motifs, and there's lots to be gained by discussing it in those terms (I like Charles Segal's suggestion in Singers, Heroes and Gods that Nausicaa is a "genius of rebirth") - if anything, though, I think this makes it even stranger that Hainsworth is saying that Nausicaa has had a "resolute dismissal" which "cannot be other than an indication of his attitude towards her". Perhaps I'm giving the word attitude more weight than it deserves, but it seems to me a mistake to suggest that the poet would develop a character so fully and then because of their "attitude" towards that character simply dispense with them. Much better, IMO, to say that she has fulfilled her function as part of one folk motif and doesn't fit neatly into the motifs of the following books, so the seams remain visible in Homer's cloth.

It's the "cannot be other" that gets me - I can think of lots of other explanations and deciding between them relies on our intuitions (grounded in wider reading) about the process by which the poem was produced, not unveiling some absolute truth. It's like saying that Shakespeare bumping off Ophelia "cannot be other than an indication of his attitude towards her" i.e. complete tosh.
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by Aetos » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:18 am

seanjonesbw wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:08 am
Hainsworth is saying that Nausicaa has had a "resolute dismissal" which "cannot be other than an indication of his attitude towards her".
I think Hainsworth would have been better served had he added "role" after "her". (It's Herodotus time, so I'll leave it at that!) After rereading his introduction to Book 6, I don't think Hainsworth is offering what on the surface appears to be a harsh criticism of the poet. Here is the section I'm referring to:
Hainsworth, Introduction Book 6, p.291:

"In addition the poet has chosen to develop the character of Nausicaa, to the delight of every reader. The motif of her impending marriage probably has deep roots in folk-tale, as if the unknown stranger she assisted were to become her suitor. It supplies an amusing gloss to several passages here and vii and viii, but it is potentially dangerous, as is apparent from the number of later authors and commentators who refused to limit the role of Nausicaa to this episode. Some married her to Telemachus, as Hellanicus FGrH 323 a F 156, and Aristotle, fr. 506 Rose, or even took seriously her dream of marriage to Odysseus (see 244 ff.), as Goethe in his unfinished tragedy. It is evident that the poet's intention lay elsewhere. In many respects Nausicaa is a feminine doublet of Telemachus, a model of decorum and courtesy. These are important matters in the Phaiakis (see 29-30n.), and underscore its wider function, which is to contrast the peace of Scheria with the disorder of Ithaca during the absence of Odysseus. The Phaiakis thus complements the Telemachy (where the chief aim is to link the Odyssey with the greater heroic world). To accomplish this purpose a certain fullness of style is necessary, especially in discourse: in good manners small details are important."

markcmueller
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat May 12, 2018 11:43 am

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by markcmueller » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:32 pm

Sean wrote:
I would love to say that I've been doing something urgent and exciting but I've actually just been distracted by British politics over the last few weeks.
Actually you can do both Homer and British politics at once:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQKRAJTgEuo

seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 314
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seanjonesbw » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:34 pm

τὸν πέρι μοῦσ᾽ ἐφίλησε, δίδου δ᾽ ἀγαθόν τε κακόν τε:
πρὶν ψυχῆς μὲν ἄμερσε, δίδου δ᾽ ἡδεῖαν ἀοιδήν.
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by Aetos » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:47 pm

Mark,
That is incredibly hilarious! It's almost enough to make me revise my opinion of Boris. He must have won a prize at school for that rendition! I've never heard those lines delivered with so much ...? Help me out here, Sean, there's got to be a word for that style of presentation.

User avatar
seneca2008
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: Londinium

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seneca2008 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:27 am

aetos wrote: It's almost enough to make me revise my opinion of Boris.
Could it possibly get any lower?

User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
Posts: 3251
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by jeidsath » Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:43 am

Save it for twitter, please. Politics can be debated -- if necessary -- on the Academy board.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 314
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seanjonesbw » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:19 am

Aetos wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:47 pm
Sean, there's got to be a word for that style of presentation.
[redacted]

As Joel says, we should steer clear of politics - purely taken as a piece of recitation, he crushes all his vowels into a lazy drone. It's how I imagine one might recite the passage as, say, a dilettante's party trick. Not to cast aspersions.
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
Posts: 3251
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by jeidsath » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:38 am

That's fair game. On the surface he strikes me as the unfortunately familiar sort of person that has received a classical education, but did not achieve Greek fluency, and who therefore views it mostly as a social signaling mechanic or academic game rather than a language. Just as obviously, however, to a sympathetic observer, is the boy who loved Homer and the idea of the language, and the education, and who worked hard at it, at least at times. It's unfortunate that we are so bad at giving such boys what they want -- a real working mastery of the language.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by Aetos » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:17 am

Sorry for the barb. I admit though that I was surprised at the length of his recitation. I was expecting him to stop at say, line 7, or perhaps 21; he managed 42 lines (although if he was going that far, he should have continued at least to Apollo's response!)and delivered them with feeling. The pronunciation was atrocious, but intelligible and to me at least it was obvious he understood the meaning of the lines he was reciting. Perhaps it's just a party trick, a social signal, or an academic game, but I'll tip my hat to him all the same for giving it a go.

seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 314
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seanjonesbw » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:41 pm

seanjonesbw wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:51 am
302 δώματα Φαιήκων, οἷος δόμος Ἀλκινόοιο
303 ἥρως. ἀλλ ̓ ὁπότ ̓ ἄν σε δόμοι κεκύθωσι καὶ αὐλή,
ἥρως - Hainsworth says this is the spelling in the MS tradition with "remarkable uniformity" but that the form is "without parallel" for the genitive. Allen has ἥρωος, which Merry says is "generally read as a dactyl" like βέβληαι (Il 11.380 - with a caron over the η, can't find a way to do that), but Ahrens reads both as synizesis. Steadman doesn't even mention it!

So should we take it as a weird spelling, synizesis or internal correption, and how do we decide?
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by Aetos » Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:08 pm

Stanford also says that "ἥρως is the reading of most MSS.; it could also be a nominative,...,vocative (cp. 4,423), but is punctuated in the text here as being a genitive. A few MSS. have the rare genitive form ἥρω with hiatus (permissible after a strong stop). Eustathius read the genitive ἥρωος with internal correption, cp. οιος in 7, 312 and υιος in 11, 270." (the dipththongs are pronounced short)
Because of the punctuation, ἥρως is considered appositive with Ἀλκιονοοῖο. All it would take is to place commas after Ἀλκινοοῖο and ἥρως to read it as a nominative (being used a vocative as it is in 4,423). Ah well, yet another mystery!

seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 314
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seanjonesbw » Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:55 pm

Aetos wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:08 pm
All it would take is to place commas after Ἀλκινοοῖο and ἥρως to read it as a nominative (being used a vocative as it is in 4,423)
I have a tin ear when it comes to Greek but that feels clunky to me. I'd be interested to know whether there's any methodological debate here at all or just intuition. Perhaps Michael will bend near the earth to cast some pearls.
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

User avatar
seneca2008
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: Londinium

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seneca2008 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:56 pm

Aetos wrote:Stanford also says that "ἥρως is the reading of most MSS.; it could also be a nominative,...,vocative (cp. 4,423)
Garvie says “ ἥρως in run over position, and in apposition to Ἀλκινόοιο, serves merely to fill up the vacant space at the beginning of the line. There is more point to it when the proper name follows as at 8.483 This contracted form of the gen. is unique. H. Uses ἥρωος at 22.185. Σ suggests that ἥρως may be vocative (cf. 7.303, etc. )but such a voc. at the end of the sentence in this position would be very strange. “

I am not sure I can get too excited about this but I posted it because it interests two of you.

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by Aetos » Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:34 pm

Here's 4, 423:
καὶ τότε δὴ σχέσθαι τε βίης λῦσαί τε γέροντα,
ἥρως, εἴρεσθαι δέ, θεῶν ὅς τίς σε χαλέπτει,

and 6,303
δώματα Φαιήκων, οἷος δόμος Ἀλκινόοιο
ἥρωος. ἀλλ᾽ ὁπότ᾽ ἄν σε δόμοι κεκύθωσι καὶ αὐλή,
(Stanford has ἥρως)
Sean, if yours is a tin ear, mine is pure lead! But honestly, this sounds OK to me; it may be serving as a place holder to fill out the line, but I should think the enjambement in 6,303 allows the poet to place emphasis on ἥρως, and if it's being emphasized, then perhaps a spondee is more appropriate, hence ἥρως or ἥρω instead of ἥρωος.
@Seneca, thanks for the information from Garvie!

seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 314
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seanjonesbw » Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:18 pm

seneca2008 wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:56 pm
I am not sure I can get too excited about this but I posted it because it interests two of you.
😛 well thank you for posting it anyway. Something to fill the hours until the next issue of Stamp Collectors' Weekly arrives.
Aetos wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:34 pm
Here's 4, 423:
καὶ τότε δὴ σχέσθαι τε βίης λῦσαί τε γέροντα,
ἥρως, εἴρεσθαι δέ, θεῶν ὅς τίς σε χαλέπτει,
I'm still not sure about it coming out of Nausicaa's mouth here, but good point well made.
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by Aetos » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:08 pm

In 4,423 it's Eidothea who's speaking, the daughter of Proteus, so it may not be Nausicaa speaking, but I can still see a slight parallel.

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 3292
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by mwh » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:12 pm

ἥρως at 6.303: I haven’t investigated but if the paradosis is ἥρως I guess epic had traditionally used ἥρως as nom. and/or voc. (as at 4.423), and here in Od.6 the same form was pushed into ad hoc service as genitive. I’d have expected ἥρωος (with internal correption) but apparently the force of tradition was too strong. Or since the Odyssey transmission is so poor it may perhaps have been just a mistake for ἥρωος. Makes no real difference. It has to be understood as genitive.

Montcombroux
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:27 am

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by Montcombroux » Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:52 am

Could someone shed some light of Scheria's geographical setting for Odysseus' encounter with Nausicaa? In Bk 6 one has the impression she travels by mule cart some distance to the clothes washing pool by the seashore. Yet, at the beginning of Bk 7, when Od arrives in town en route to Alcinous' palace, he admires the port and the fine ships, meaning that the town is also on the coast. Is this arrangement a bit of dramatic license on the author's part? There must have been a suitable stream close by but it wouldn't have been as secluded as the one where the meeting takes place.
Many thanks
Michael

seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 314
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seanjonesbw » Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:18 am

Montcombroux wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:52 am
Could someone shed some light of Scheria's geographical setting for Odysseus' encounter with Nausicaa?
I bought a copy of Merry's edition of the Odyssey for schools a while back, which has the following comment on 6.262-65 and the picture below accompanying it:

"Translate the passage, ‘But when we set foot in the city; round which runs a lofty rampart, and there is a fair haven at either side of the city, and narrow is the entrance. And rounded ships are drawn up along the road; for all the men have, each one to himself, a dock.’ Like ᾿Αστερὶς, Od. 4. 846, the town had two harbours, for it was situated on a peninsula, and a harbour was formed on either side, leaving a narrow isthmus, along which the ships were drawn up."

Image

So Merry makes Scheria a tied island connected to the mainland (or a bigger island?) by a tombolo. There seem to be quite a few of these in Greece. That doesn't answer your question about the washing pools - as you say, they're a good way from town (πολλὸν γὰρ ἀπὸ πλυνοί εἰσι πόληος - 6.40). At 6.259 Nausicaa talks about how they will pass through fields on the way to town (ὄφρ᾽ ἂν μέν κ᾽ ἀγροὺς ἴομεν) which are perhaps the fields mentioned at the start of Book 6 which Nausithous divided among the Phaeacians (6.10). Presumably the river is on the other side of these and whatever water supply is nearer to Scheria would be reserved for drinking water.

Of course it's a fictional place and we shouldn't assume it makes complete sense but I find the above reasonably satisfying.
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 314
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seanjonesbw » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:45 am

A question for those with much wider and deeper reading than I have:

321 δύσετό τ ̓ ἠέλιος καὶ τοὶ κλυτὸν ἄλσος ἵκοντο
322 ἱρὸν Ἀθηναίης, ἵν ̓ ἄρ ̓ ἕζετο δῖος Ὀδυσσεύς.

Does a Greek (in fiction) have to be told that a space is sacred to a particular god or is it 'obvious' in some way? And is a grove like this one a 'thin place' where access to the god is easier, a place where one is expected to offer prayer, or both?
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

User avatar
Paul Derouda
Global Moderator
Posts: 2133
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by Paul Derouda » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:33 pm

I think this reflects real cult practices, even if in this particular case the sacred grove is fictional. When Odysseus arrives in Ithaca, he hides his valuables in a sacred cave of the nymphs, which is suspected to be a real world cult place in Ithaca. (There are probably better examples of actual cult places mentioned in Homer, but I can’t remember).

I don’t know what particular features in the absence of a temple would have marked the grove as sacred to a god. Was there perhaps an altar?

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by Aetos » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:09 pm

seanjonesbw wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:45 am
Does a Greek (in fiction) have to be told that a space is sacred to a particular god or is it 'obvious' in some way? And is a grove like this one a 'thin place' where access to the god is easier, a place where one is expected to offer prayer, or both?
You might find this interesting:
https://www.academia.edu/1081445/Sacred ... Landscapes

I did not read the article all the way through, but page 8, I think, deals with your question. Sacred groves could be distinguished by shrines, altars, temples or simply by common knowledge. There are 2 types: natural, and landscaped. Natural sacred groves would be found in those places untouched and thus not defiled by man. Landscaped of course, would be those specifically planted about a temple or shrine.
Leaving one's village, going on past the cultivated fields surrounding it and encountering the wilderness would probably alert someone that he was about to enter an area that only the gods control. Athena's sacred grove in ll. 292-294 would appear to be of the second type, however, as it is reserved for Alkinoos.

User avatar
seneca2008
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: Londinium

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seneca2008 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:51 pm

Aetos wrote:Athena's sacred grove in ll. 292-294 would appear to be of the second type, however, as it is reserved for Alkinoos.
I am not sure I follow this. I thought the thrust of these lines is "you will find the grove of Athena ...there is my father's estate". Perhaps reserved is not quite the right word. My understanding is that there is grove surrounded by a meadow and alongside this a "τέμενος" which is N.'s estate including the flourishing garden. But perhaps the "τέμενος" dedicated to Alcinous also includes the grove, making it his property. I think my confusion about this arose because I assumed that the grove dedicated to Athena would have been a public space. But I suppose there is not good reason to believe that. Perhaps reserved is the right word. I leave this post as it is in case other people were puzzled about this.

User avatar
seneca2008
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: Londinium

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seneca2008 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:02 pm

deleted incomplete duplicate
Last edited by seneca2008 on Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by Aetos » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:28 pm

seneca2008 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:51 pm
My understanding is that there is grove surrounded by a meadow and alongside this a "τέμενος" which is N.'s estate including the flourishing garden. But perhaps the "τέμενος" dedicated to Alcinous also includes the grove, making it his property.
Seneca, you're probably right. I was thinking of ἄλσος as more of the first type of sacred grove, i.e. natural landscape and τέμενος as the second type, a cultivated landscape, but still sacred and so I rather carelessly attributed the grove to Alkinoos. After reading a little more closely, I don't see any other necessary connexion aside from proximity. There is an ἄλσος Ἀθήνης and the πατρός ἐμοῦ τέμενος. From what I've read, by and large τέμενος is used by Homer to indicate a royal estate and ἄλσος to describe a sacred grove, cultivated or not. According to Hainesworth, the use of τέμενος to mean sacred precinct occurs later on.

User avatar
seneca2008
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: Londinium

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seneca2008 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:07 pm

seanjonesbw wrote:Does a Greek (in fiction) have to be told that a space is sacred to a particular god or is it 'obvious' in some way?
Something seems to have gone wrong with the previous version of this post

I think my answer was that readers would have understood 292 to be a locus amoenus and therefore probably the home of some god or other. (maybe a dryad). Nausicaa our guide here gives the local attribution. Odysseus would probably guess if it was pleasant Athena was somewhere in the picture just as any disaster could be attributable to Poseidon.

Aetos, thanks. It was a small point but as it turns out it was worth bringing to your attention.

User avatar
seneca2008
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: Londinium

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seneca2008 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:03 pm

Just two small points.

First I have been thinking about the first word of line 301 : νήπιος.

Garvie notes that in this position νήπιος in the Iliad occurs frequently and in the very "different context of a warrior setting off with high hopes to a battle from which he will not return". I wonder whether there is some humour here. Athena will be Odysseus's guide and as the goddess of wisdom is far from a νήπιος. There are other resonances here too.

Secondly, I have noticed people talking about "fairy stories" in relation to Homer. I wondered if anyone has some references for this. Is it just some general idea that emerges from narratology or has some specific work been done on it? I really know nothing about fairy stories but had always imagined them to be a 19th century invention. I understand that there have probably always been folk tales but I wonder why we make a distinction between fairy stories and folk tales?

seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 314
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seanjonesbw » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:39 pm

Aetos wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:09 pm
There are 2 types: natural, and landscaped. Natural sacred groves would be found in those places untouched and thus not defiled by man. Landscaped of course, would be those specifically planted about a temple or shrine.
I actually hadn't considered that you might plant a sacred grove, how interesting. I'd always assumed that they were all a kind of naturally-occurring 'green chapel' like the first type, with a bit of edge to them (as if the priest of Nemi might pop out from behind one of the trees).

I was just about to add that a deliberately planted grove sounds somehow less sacred but there are wooded graveyards in London that are some of the most numinous spaces I've ever been in.
seneca2008 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:07 pm
Nausicaa our guide here gives the local attribution. Odysseus would probably guess if it was pleasant Athena was somewhere in the picture just as any disaster could be attributable to Poseidon.
Yes point taken about the reader's perspective. I suppose in a roundabout way I was asking whether there might have been an Athena-specific altar or one of those carved shrines that Pausanias seems to come across everywhere he visits (admittedly in a different millennium). Aetos's link drew my attention to the list of sacred groves in Homer and specifically to Book 17 of the Odyssey (the paper actually says the Iliad but this is wrong) where we have (204-211)

ἀλλ᾽ ὅτε δὴ στείχοντες ὁδὸν κάτα παιπαλόεσσαν
ἄστεος ἐγγὺς ἔσαν καὶ ἐπὶ κρήνην ἀφίκοντο
τυκτὴν καλλίροον, ὅθεν ὑδρεύοντο πολῖται,
τὴν ποίησ᾽ Ἴθακος καὶ Νήριτος ἠδὲ Πολύκτωρ:
ἀμφὶ δ᾽ ἄρ᾽ αἰγείρων ὑδατοτρεφέων ἦν ἄλσος,
πάντοσε κυκλοτερές, κατὰ δὲ ψυχρὸν ῥέεν ὕδωρ
ὑψόθεν ἐκ πέτρης: βωμὸς δ᾽ ἐφύπερθε τέτυκτο
νυμφάων, ὅθι πάντες ἐπιρρέζεσκον ὁδῖται:

Murray's translation for convenience:
But when, as they went along the rugged path, they were near the city, and had come to a well-wrought, fair-flowing fountain, wherefrom the townsfolk drew water—this Ithacus had made, and Neritus, and Polyctor, and around was a grove of poplars, that grow by the waters, circling it on all sides, and down the cold water flowed from the rock above, and on the top was built an altar to the nymphs where all passers-by made offerings.

Tantalising but it's still not clear whether anything marks it out as a βωμὸς νυμφάων specifically.
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
Posts: 3251
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by jeidsath » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:44 pm

seneca2008 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:03 pm
Secondly, I have noticed people talking about "fairy stories" in relation to Homer. I wondered if anyone has some references for this. Is it just some general idea that emerges from narratology or has some specific work been done on it? I really know nothing about fairy stories but had always imagined them to be a 19th century invention. I understand that there have probably always been folk tales but I wonder why we make a distinction between fairy stories and folk tales?
Folk tales are what you find in Grimm. Fairy stories are what you find in the Oxford Book of Ballads (and elsewhere). There's far less nonsense for one thing. Read Tam Lin or Thomas the Rhymer to your kids a few dozen times, or some of the Robin Hood ballads, and you'll get the idea.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 314
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seanjonesbw » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:02 pm

seneca2008 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:03 pm
Secondly, I have noticed people talking about "fairy stories" in relation to Homer. I wondered if anyone has some references for this.
I'm not sure if you're referring to Aetos's "fairy-land" here or something else - fairy-land/fairyland is a term which has been used to talk about Scheria specifically in folkloristic and comparative mythological studies (1, 2, etc.). It refers more to the life of ease that the Phaeacians live rather than pointing to any fairytale elements. I think it's a bit outdated as a term - it oversimplifies the 'unreality' of Scheria.

I'll leave a full discussion of this until we get onto the start of Book 7 but I think Scheria much more closely resembles a Celtic otherworld, which both seems to exist within the protagonist's own world and outwith it simultaneously, and where strange or magical features of the world can be treated as normal.
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 314
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by seanjonesbw » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:14 pm

jeidsath wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:44 pm
Folk tales are what you find in Grimm. Fairy stories are what you find in the Oxford Book of Ballads (and elsewhere). There's far less nonsense for one thing. Read Tam Lin or Thomas the Rhymer to your kids a few dozen times, or some of the Robin Hood ballads, and you'll get the idea.
I think it's better to consider fairytales/stories a kind of folktale, which is a more general term. Strange you should mention Thomas the Rhymer - I drive past the spot where the Eildon Tree stood every day! Do you have some Scottish in you, Joel?
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Post by Aetos » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:26 pm

seanjonesbw wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:02 pm
Tantalising but it's still not clear whether anything marks it out as a βωμὸς νυμφάων specifically.
Perhaps it does require local knowledge to identify a particular shrine with a particular god/hero. I was reading a section in Herodotus recently (Book 6, C.78-80) where Kleomenes is fighting the Argives and after surprising them at breakfast and defeating them chases the remainder of their force into a sacred grove. He is able to entice about 50 to come out with the promise of a ransom (then murders them) until the rest discover his ploy and continue to hold out in the grove. Kleomenes then burns down the grove. Afterwards, he asks "To which god does this grove belong?". He learns that the shrine is of Argos, the hero god of Argos. This happened to fulfill a prophecy, so considering his mission complete, he departed. It struck me as odd that he wouldn't know this or at least ask the question before burning down a sacred precinct. He does ask one of the Argive deserters, but only after the fact.

Post Reply