Check the introductory thread for a description of how the group works.
We’re working from Geoffrey Steadman’s Odyssey Books 6-8, a freely-available pdf with vocabulary and notes
I think what he's saying is that in other instances of hiatus, the difficulty with the hiatus is often removed by "une coupe nette du sens" - a clear break in sense. In this instance, however, it is not. There is no break in sense between ἀστυδε and ἔλθωμεν.seanjonesbw wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:20 pmFirstly, I really am a dreadful dunce when it comes to metre - Hainsworth says of "ἄστυδε ἔλθωμεν" (296) that "emendations (ἄστυδ' ἀν-, ἄστυδ' έσ- ... ἄστυ δι-) seek to obviate the hiatus which is not defended, as elsewhere in this position, by 'une coupe nette du sens' (Chantraine, Grammaire, i 89)". Is he just saying that these emendations cover the hiatus but don't make sense?
I've been reading Mark Edwards' book Homer:Poet of the Iliad, and in chapter 6 he deals with Homer's use of story patterns and myth. In the case of Nausicaa, he mentions that Woodhouse ("The Composition of Homer's Odyssey")calls this the "Winning the Wife" story pattern which Homer modifies for his own narrative. Viewed in this light, Homer is telling a story which will delight his audience (after all, a visit to fairy-land should be delightful!) but also needs to provide a way for Odysseus to finally leave fairy-land and return to Ithaca. The audience knows that Odysseus is destined to make his way back to Penelope, so Nausicaa has to go, but the picture he paints, within the constraints of his own narrative, is still a beautiful one.seanjonesbw wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:20 pmWhile we're on Hainsworth, when he discusses Nausicaa's departure he presents this strange opinion (p.314):
"Nausicaa drives away and, but for a routine epilogue at the beginning of vii and a brief re-entry at viii 457-68, out of the story. This resolute dismissal by the poet of a sympathetic character cannot be other than an indication of his attitude towards her. The scene by the river is an episode, no more, a necessary and well-elaborated part of the οἰκονομία of the poem. The poet draws in outline an indulgent portrait of a well-bred girl: but there is no emotional involvement, least of all on the part of the hero. See introduction to vi."
The underlying assumptions about the relationship between poet and character are bizarre - is he suggesting that the poet has inherited a character they don't like and so limited her involvement or that the poet responsible for creating Nausicaa has somehow gone off her?
I think Hainsworth would have been better served had he added "role" after "her". (It's Herodotus time, so I'll leave it at that!) After rereading his introduction to Book 6, I don't think Hainsworth is offering what on the surface appears to be a harsh criticism of the poet. Here is the section I'm referring to:
Actually you can do both Homer and British politics at once:I would love to say that I've been doing something urgent and exciting but I've actually just been distracted by British politics over the last few weeks.
Could it possibly get any lower?aetos wrote: It's almost enough to make me revise my opinion of Boris.
ἥρως - Hainsworth says this is the spelling in the MS tradition with "remarkable uniformity" but that the form is "without parallel" for the genitive. Allen has ἥρωος, which Merry says is "generally read as a dactyl" like βέβληαι (Il 11.380 - with a caron over the η, can't find a way to do that), but Ahrens reads both as synizesis. Steadman doesn't even mention it!
I have a tin ear when it comes to Greek but that feels clunky to me. I'd be interested to know whether there's any methodological debate here at all or just intuition. Perhaps Michael will bend near the earth to cast some pearls.
Garvie says “ ἥρως in run over position, and in apposition to Ἀλκινόοιο, serves merely to fill up the vacant space at the beginning of the line. There is more point to it when the proper name follows as at 8.483 This contracted form of the gen. is unique. H. Uses ἥρωος at 22.185. Σ suggests that ἥρως may be vocative (cf. 7.303, etc. )but such a voc. at the end of the sentence in this position would be very strange. “Aetos wrote:Stanford also says that "ἥρως is the reading of most MSS.; it could also be a nominative,...,vocative (cp. 4,423)
well thank you for posting it anyway. Something to fill the hours until the next issue of Stamp Collectors' Weekly arrives.
I'm still not sure about it coming out of Nausicaa's mouth here, but good point well made.
I bought a copy of Merry's edition of the Odyssey for schools a while back, which has the following comment on 6.262-65 and the picture below accompanying it:
You might find this interesting:
I am not sure I follow this. I thought the thrust of these lines is "you will find the grove of Athena ...there is my father's estate". Perhaps reserved is not quite the right word. My understanding is that there is grove surrounded by a meadow and alongside this a "τέμενος" which is N.'s estate including the flourishing garden. But perhaps the "τέμενος" dedicated to Alcinous also includes the grove, making it his property. I think my confusion about this arose because I assumed that the grove dedicated to Athena would have been a public space. But I suppose there is not good reason to believe that. Perhaps reserved is the right word. I leave this post as it is in case other people were puzzled about this.Aetos wrote:Athena's sacred grove in ll. 292-294 would appear to be of the second type, however, as it is reserved for Alkinoos.
Seneca, you're probably right. I was thinking of ἄλσος as more of the first type of sacred grove, i.e. natural landscape and τέμενος as the second type, a cultivated landscape, but still sacred and so I rather carelessly attributed the grove to Alkinoos. After reading a little more closely, I don't see any other necessary connexion aside from proximity. There is an ἄλσος Ἀθήνης and the πατρός ἐμοῦ τέμενος. From what I've read, by and large τέμενος is used by Homer to indicate a royal estate and ἄλσος to describe a sacred grove, cultivated or not. According to Hainesworth, the use of τέμενος to mean sacred precinct occurs later on.
Something seems to have gone wrong with the previous version of this postseanjonesbw wrote:Does a Greek (in fiction) have to be told that a space is sacred to a particular god or is it 'obvious' in some way?
I actually hadn't considered that you might plant a sacred grove, how interesting. I'd always assumed that they were all a kind of naturally-occurring 'green chapel' like the first type, with a bit of edge to them (as if the priest of Nemi might pop out from behind one of the trees).
Yes point taken about the reader's perspective. I suppose in a roundabout way I was asking whether there might have been an Athena-specific altar or one of those carved shrines that Pausanias seems to come across everywhere he visits (admittedly in a different millennium). Aetos's link drew my attention to the list of sacred groves in Homer and specifically to Book 17 of the Odyssey (the paper actually says the Iliad but this is wrong) where we have (204-211)
Folk tales are what you find in Grimm. Fairy stories are what you find in the Oxford Book of Ballads (and elsewhere). There's far less nonsense for one thing. Read Tam Lin or Thomas the Rhymer to your kids a few dozen times, or some of the Robin Hood ballads, and you'll get the idea.seneca2008 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:03 pmSecondly, I have noticed people talking about "fairy stories" in relation to Homer. I wondered if anyone has some references for this. Is it just some general idea that emerges from narratology or has some specific work been done on it? I really know nothing about fairy stories but had always imagined them to be a 19th century invention. I understand that there have probably always been folk tales but I wonder why we make a distinction between fairy stories and folk tales?
I'm not sure if you're referring to Aetos's "fairy-land" here or something else - fairy-land/fairyland is a term which has been used to talk about Scheria specifically in folkloristic and comparative mythological studies (1, 2, etc.). It refers more to the life of ease that the Phaeacians live rather than pointing to any fairytale elements. I think it's a bit outdated as a term - it oversimplifies the 'unreality' of Scheria.
I think it's better to consider fairytales/stories a kind of folktale, which is a more general term. Strange you should mention Thomas the Rhymer - I drive past the spot where the Eildon Tree stood every day! Do you have some Scottish in you, Joel?jeidsath wrote: ↑Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:44 pmFolk tales are what you find in Grimm. Fairy stories are what you find in the Oxford Book of Ballads (and elsewhere). There's far less nonsense for one thing. Read Tam Lin or Thomas the Rhymer to your kids a few dozen times, or some of the Robin Hood ballads, and you'll get the idea.
Perhaps it does require local knowledge to identify a particular shrine with a particular god/hero. I was reading a section in Herodotus recently (Book 6, C.78-80) where Kleomenes is fighting the Argives and after surprising them at breakfast and defeating them chases the remainder of their force into a sacred grove. He is able to entice about 50 to come out with the promise of a ransom (then murders them) until the rest discover his ploy and continue to hold out in the grove. Kleomenes then burns down the grove. Afterwards, he asks "To which god does this grove belong?". He learns that the shrine is of Argos, the hero god of Argos. This happened to fulfill a prophecy, so considering his mission complete, he departed. It struck me as odd that he wouldn't know this or at least ask the question before burning down a sacred precinct. He does ask one of the Argive deserters, but only after the fact.