μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

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μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Mon May 06, 2019 1:35 pm

I assume the somebody somewhere has mentioned this previously in regard to Nonnus' Dionysiaca. If they haven't then there's no time like the present.
LSJ, μεσημβριάς wrote:μεσημβριάς, άδος, pecul. fem. of μεσημβρινός, Nonn.D.48.590.
Nonn.D.48.590 wrote:Κεῖθι δὲ διψώουσα μεσημβριὰς ἔτρεχεν Αὔρη,
And there came running thirsty at midday Aura herself,
Page from LCL.
The Coptic Psali Watos for the Three Saintly Children (Greek) :: إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين - رومية, Sundays, verse zeta wrote:Ⲍⲏⲗⲱⲧⲉ Ⲁ̀ⲍⲁⲣⲓⲁⲥ: ⲉⲥⲡⲉⲣⲁⲥ ⲕⲉ ⲡ́ⲣⲱⲓ́ ⲕⲉ ⲙⲉⲥⲏⲙ ⲃ́ⲣⲓⲁⲥ: ⲙⲁⲱ̀ⲟⲩ ⲛ̀̀ϫⲟⲙ ⲛ̀ϯⲧ̀ⲣⲓⲁⲥ: ϩⲱⲥ ⲉ̀ⲣⲟϥ: ⲁ̀ⲣⲓϩⲟⲩⲟ̀ ϭⲁⲥϥ.
الظهيرة (afternoon)
Page from tasbeha.org
The three adverbs here together mean "all throughout the day".

If it is not read as an adjective with Αὔρη, it may be adverbial as in the Coptic.
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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by Hylander » Tue May 07, 2019 1:32 am

μεσημβρινός, and presumably μεσημβριάς, mean "noontime", not "all throughout the day." For the "adverbial" usage, see Smyth 1042:
1042. Several adjectives of time, place, order of succession, etc., are used as predicates where English employs an adverb or a preposition with its case: ““ἀφικνοῦνται τριταῖοι” they arrive on the third day” X. A. 5.3.2, κατέβαινον σκοταῖοι they descended in the dark 4. 1. 10. In such cases the adjective is regarded as a quality of the subject; whereas an adverb would regard the manner of the action.

a. Time, place: χρόνιος late, ὄρθριος in the morning, δευτεραῖος on the second day, ποσταῖος how many days? ὑπαίθριος in the open air.

b. Order of succession: πρῶτος, πρότερος first, ὕστερος later, μέσος in the midst, τελευταῖος last, ὕστατος last.

* * *
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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Tue May 07, 2019 6:18 am

Hylander wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 1:32 am
μεσημβρινός, and presumably μεσημβριάς, mean "noontime", not "all throughout the day."
Presumably, you are thinking in terms of circular (angular) movement. Another way to think of the Sun's movement is that it goes up, travels across, then goes down.

If people are reading that I claimed μεσημβριάς means "all throughout the day", then perhaps I was too succinct. Let me add a bit to what I said.
ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:35 pm
Psali Watos - Sunday wrote:ⲉⲥⲡⲉⲣⲁⲥ ⲕⲉ ⲡ́ⲣⲱⲓ́ ⲕⲉ ⲙⲉⲥⲏⲙ ⲃ́ⲣⲓⲁⲥ
The three adverbs [ⲉⲥⲡⲉⲣⲁⲥ, ⲡ́ⲣⲱⲓ́ and ⲙⲉⲥⲏⲙ ⲃ́ⲣⲓⲁⲥ which are use] here together [collectively] mean "all throughout the day".
Hylander wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 1:32 am
For the "adverbial" usage, see Smyth 1042:
It seems I was too succinct here too. Let me expand:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:35 pm
If it is not read [in Nonnus] as an adjective [carrying adverbial force, ie describing the character of the subject when doing the action] with Αὔρη, it may [but not neccessarily] be [fully and only] adverbial as it is used in the Coptic Psali Watos.
The title of the Psali includes the detail that it was Greek (literally "Roman"), ie a translation or adaptation of some thing that was originally in Greek.

I am not advocating the interpretation of μεσημβριάς as an adverb, but seeing as it is a hapax legomenon in Nonnus, and Nonnus was from late antique Egypt, it is worth considering whether he was using the same word as he might have used liturgically each Saturday evening.

LSJ, presumably without knowledge of the Coptic text, describes μεσημβριάς as peculiar (either unique or strange). This that I'm presenting is just one one piece of information that may lead to a re-evaluation of the word μεσημβριάς in Nonnus.
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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by Constantinus Philo » Tue May 07, 2019 1:44 pm

Is there an Arabic text available
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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by Hylander » Tue May 07, 2019 4:14 pm

I'm not sure I completely follow your arguments, especially when you get into Coptic and/or Arabic, languages that I know next to nothing about. However, I don't see anything unusual in Nonnus' Greek.

Nonnus clearly created his nonce word μεσημβριάς, (it’s “peculiar" in the sense of "unique," not “strange") in accordance with usual rules of Greek word-formation, because no feminine form of μεσημβρινός would scan in a hexameter. I'm sure you could find any number of other instances where feminine adjectives in -ας conveniently replace unscanable adjectives in -η in poetry metri gratia (and not just in hexameters). I doubt that any experienced reader of Greek poetry from any part of the Greek-speaking world would have raised an eyebrow over this word.

I probably should have translated μεσημβρινός, and μεσημβριάς more literally as "mid-day", rather than noon. Latin meridies is calqued on μεσημβρινός, but, except for astronomers and astrologers, the ancients (and especially poets) were little concerned with astronomical precision in telling the time of day -- they didn't wear watches and sun-dials weren't ubiquitous.

The mid-day siesta -- seeking respite from mid-day heat -- was (and is) a feature of Mediterranean communities, especially agricultural communities where farmers and shepherds worked outdoors during the day. This is a recurrent trope of Greek and Latin literature, particularly in the pastoral tradition. Typically, as in this passage of Nonnus, a locus amoenus is sought out, with water, shade and a breeze, and sometimes (in fact, often in Ovid) the locus amoenus takes a sinister turn. In Nonnus we also have flowers, nightingales, etc. But it's Aure (in her Ionic guise -- this is epic), the breeze herself, who comes to the locus amoenus hot and thirsty -- a neat twist on the usual pattern. Hot, thirsty, and ripe for seduction.
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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Tue May 07, 2019 7:19 pm

Hylander wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 4:14 pm

I probably should have translated μεσημβρινός, and μεσημβριάς more literally as "mid-day", rather than noon. Latin meridies is calqued on μεσημβρινός, but, except for astronomers and astrologers, the ancients (and especially poets) were little concerned with astronomical precision in telling the time of day -- they didn't wear watches and sun-dials weren't ubiquitous.
Probably not a calque, but a collateral formation.
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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by Hylander » Tue May 07, 2019 10:16 pm

In any event, if I understand the Coptic text you cited correctly, MECHMBPIAC is not Nonnus' nonce adjective μεσημβριάς. It's the genitive of the noun μεσημβρία (genitive of "time"), as the parallel word ECΠEPAC shows.

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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed May 08, 2019 1:28 am

Constantinus Philo wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 1:44 pm
Is there an Arabic text available
There is a hyperlink to tasbeha.org there in the opening post. The translation is الظهيرة.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by Constantinus Philo » Wed May 08, 2019 3:09 am

الظهيرة means noon or midday heat
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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed May 08, 2019 6:02 am

Constantinus Philo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 3:09 am
الظهيرة means noon
Tread a bit lightly there, mate.

You are not wrong in saying that it means "noon", but you are not completely right either. As a point in time, yes, it is "noon", "midday". As a period of time, however, "afternoon" is also quite possible.

Look at the many examples of that on the reverse dictionary site.

So far as I know (only by observation and not by instruction so far as I remember), the article with a noun of time serves the purpose of a preposition such as "in", "on", "at" or "during".

Edit: there is no example of "midday heat" on the reverso dictionary site, or any other online dictionary sites that I looked at.
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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed May 08, 2019 6:10 am

Hylander wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:16 pm
In any event, if I understand the Coptic text you cited correctly, MECHMBPIAC is not Nonnus' nonce adjective μεσημβρίας. It's the genitive of the noun μεσημβρία (genitive of "time"), as the parallel word ECΠEPAC shows.
A German speaker might say that "Gesundheit!" was a noun, while an English speaker would say that it is an interjection. Likewise a francophone might recognise touché as a past participle.

There are no genitive in the Coptic language. Loan words don't bring with them the system of grammar that they were originally meaningful in. In the case of the Greek in this text it is probably not appropriate to call it a loan word, though the resulting lack of grammatical understanding is the same. The text may have originally been a bilingual assuming that a bilingual community understood both languages of a Roman (ie linguistically Greek and culturally Byzantine) - Coptic diglossia, but gradually after the displacement of the Byzantine rule, Greek came to be no longer used for public administration. A different diglossia evolved. Including Arabic in the title, and hyperlinking to the tasbeha.org page with parallel Arabic text, was an attempt to put the Coptic text in context.

If I had ignored the changes to the language ecologies in which the text has been used, and normalised the spelling of ⲉⲥⲡⲉⲣⲁⲥ ⲕⲉ ⲡ́ⲣⲱⲓ́ ⲕⲉ ⲙⲉⲥⲏⲙ ⲃ́ⲣⲓⲁⲥ to our modern (small "m") Greek orthographical norms as ἑσπέρας καὶ πρωῒ καὶ μεσημβριάς, then there wouldn't be need for this discussion. After the change in the language ecology, when the words retained their meaning but lost their grammar, what was a genitive of time, ie, functionally a temporal adverb, retained its functional (discourse level) grammar, but lost its morphological (morphosyntactic level) grammar.

Anyway, I believe you are right about it being understood at the time of Nonnus - when Greek was the public language in a diglossia with Coptic - in terms of its own Greek grammar. My thinking was anachronistic. I had Nonnus pictured as a member of the general population in an era later than he was in. In actual fact, however, he was living during the period of Greek - Coptic diglossia, and he was exceptional in his command of Greek.

My thinking was little more than a ill-directed sneeze and "Touché" for your reminder that it is Greek in its own terms that is in the Coptic Psali.
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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed May 08, 2019 6:19 am

Hylander wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:16 pm
MECHMBPIAC ... ECΠEPAC
There is an online Coptic keyboard available here.
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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by Constantinus Philo » Wed May 08, 2019 6:31 am

Midday heat is given as one of the meanings in H Wehr Arabic English dictionary which is the best in existence
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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed May 08, 2019 7:31 am

Constantinus Philo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 6:31 am
Midday heat is given as one of the meanings in H Wehr Arabic English dictionary which is the best in existence
Doesn't it give "afternoon" as a meaning then?
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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed May 08, 2019 7:40 am

Hylander wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 4:14 pm
I probably should have translated μεσημβρινός, and μεσημβριάς more literally as "mid-day", rather than noon. Latin meridies is calqued on μεσημβρινός, but, except for astronomers and astrologers, the ancients (and especially poets) were little concerned with astronomical precision in telling the time of day -- they didn't wear watches and sun-dials weren't ubiquitous
The non-exact meaning aside, I found this story showing just how exact μεσημβρίας can be.
Aristides, Aelius, Orationes 48 wrote:ἐν μὲν Ἐλεφαντίνῃ λάμπεται πάντα, καὶ νεῲ καὶ ἄνθρωποικαὶ στῆλαι, καὶ οὐδὲν ἔχει σκιὰν τῆς μεσημβρίας, ἐπειδὰν τὴν μεγίστην ὁ ἥλιος πληροῖ: ἐν δὲ Συήνῃ τῆς αὐτῆς ἡμέρας τε καὶ ὥρας μέσος ἐν μέσῳ τῷ ἱερῷ φρέατι ὁ κύκλος τοῦ ἡλίου φαίνεται,
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by Constantinus Philo » Wed May 08, 2019 11:12 am

No it doesn't and the lapse of time for الظهيرة in those countries is from about 12 pm to 3 pm
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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed May 08, 2019 12:16 pm

Constantinus Philo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 11:12 am
ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 7:31 am
Constantinus Philo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 6:31 am
Midday heat is given as one of the meanings in H Wehr Arabic English dictionary which is the best in existence
Doesn't it give "afternoon" as a meaning then?
No it doesn't and the lapse of time for الظهيرة in those countries is from about 12 pm to 3 pm
I suggest you reapraise the value of the entry for ظهيرة in the English translation of H Wehr's dictionary. All of the examples for هذه الظهيره, which I understand as "that afternoon", in the reverso dictionary are rendered "this afternoon" or "that afternoon".

12-3 is "early afternoon", is that listed in the English rendering of Wehr's dictionary?
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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by Hylander » Wed May 08, 2019 12:47 pm

All of the examples for هذه الظهيره, which I understand as "that afternoon", in the reverso dictionary are rendered "this afternoon" or "that afternoon".
If we're trying to understand the meaning of a Greek word from an Arabic translation of a Coptic text that incorporates the Greek word, using an Arabic-English dictionary translated from German, I'd suggest we're headed in the wrong direction. "Afternoon" in any event is a concept that has meaning in a society regulated by clocks and watches, where noon can be determined more or less precisely. Again, apart from astronomers and astrologers (and leaving aside the description of a striking natural phenomenon in Aelius Aristides), the ancients were not so precise about time. But the translation of the Arabic word as "midday heat" conveys the connotations of μεσημβρία (paroxytone, in contrast to Nonnus' μεσημβριάς).

It's also noteworthy that the first word of the Coptic text is also Greek: ΖΗΛWTE, ζηλωτέ, "happy" or "blessed" in the vocative case. I can't discern any more Greek in the Coptic text, but the Greek words and the concatenation of the adverbial words by κε/και suggest that this is at least the beginning of a grammatical sentence in Greek, perhaps an indication of diglossia on the part of the author, not an example of Greek words incorporated into Coptic without regard to their grammatical form or function in Greek.

Be that as it may, as little is known about Nonnus as about Homer himself. Even his date is uncertain, but whether he was a Coptic speaker or a Greek speaker at home or in his everyday milieu is an unanswerable question. The one thing we can be certain of, however, is that the author of the Dionysiaca was adept at composing poetry in traditional epic/Homeric Greek and was thoroughly acquainted with Greek literature and Greek pagan mythology.

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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed May 08, 2019 2:17 pm

Hylander wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 12:47 pm
"Afternoon" in any event is a concept that has meaning in a society regulated by clocks and watches, where noon can be determined more or less precisely.
Herodotus, seems to imply an "afternoon" (or "aftermidday") period in India.
Hdt. 3.104.3 wrote:μεσοῦσα δὲ ἡ ἡμέρη σχεδὸν παραπλησίως καίει τούς τε ἄλλους ἀνθρώπους καὶ τοὺς Ἰνδούς. ἀποκλινομένης δὲ τῆς μεσαμβρίης γίνεταί σφι ὁ ἥλιος κατά περ τοῖσι ἄλλοισι ὁ ἑωθινός, καὶ τὸ ἀπὸ τούτου ἀπιὼν ἐπὶ μᾶλλον ψύχει, ἐς ὃ ἐπὶ δυσμῇσι ἐὼν καὶ τὸ κάρτα ψύχει
ἀπὸ τούτου ἀπιὼν ... ἐς ὃ ἐπὶ δυσμῇσι ἐὼν suggests there is a space between leaving the midday and arriving at the setting - what we call afternoon.

The meaning given in LSJ perhaps doesn't explain the intervening period
ἀποκλίνω .... of the day, decline towards evening, ἀποκλινομένης τῆς μεσαμβρίης, τῆς ἡμέρης, Hdt.3.104, 114, 4.181.
unless the declination of the sun first mentioned is a summary of what he is going to say.
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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by Constantinus Philo » Wed May 08, 2019 2:40 pm

Ok u intrigued me so I have checked the ultimate reference which is lisan Al Arab by Farahidi. Basically he gives the same meanings as Wehr. On the other hand Kazimirsky' s Arabic French dictionary which is based upon the other ultimate reference the crown of the bride does not indicate the meaning of midday heat. I would stick to what lisan Al Arab says however.
NB for afternoon there is a different world much in use in Arabic which is asr عصر. No one ever mixes them up.
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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by Hylander » Wed May 08, 2019 3:42 pm

Herodotus doesn't have a specific word for "afternoon" -- because the exact time of noon could not normally be determined with precision in his world -- so he expresses something like the modern English concept as the decline of midday, ἀποκλινομένης δὲ τῆς μεσαμβρίης. Likewise, Aelius Aristides describes places where precise local astronomical noon was pinpointed more or less precisely as unusual natural wonders. Both of these passages illustrate my point: ancient societies weren't regulated by the precise time measurement that modern clocks make possible, for better or worse.

It's also worth noting that in Herodotus, as in Nonnus, μεσημβρία is associated with midday heat.

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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by Constantinus Philo » Wed May 08, 2019 4:23 pm

In Bailly I have found δειλη used by Herodotus for afternoon
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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Thu May 09, 2019 12:53 am

Hylander wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 3:42 pm
Both of these passages illustrate my point: ancient societies weren't regulated by the precise time measurement that modern clocks make possible, for better or worse.
At least for private arrangements, the present day Egyptians that I have met both here and in other places are not regulated by precise time measurement either. Last year I arranged to have dinner with somebody. I arrived in the vicinity of the restaurant a little before the agreed time. The person had arranged to meet arrived about two and a half hour later. He wasn't worried by that at all and talked about the things that he had been doing over the past three hours, both planned and which had arisen unexpectedly. On another occasion, before mobile phones became ubiquitous, with a German, I arrived outside the agreed restaurant a few minutes before time and then waited for about 30 minutes. Assuming that something had come up, I ate alone. A few days later, I met the fellow. He explained that he arrived a good half hour before time, and seeing as I had not shown up he left. He felt that 3 minutes before time was late. Precision in measurement may modify things a little, but the underlying assumption that time is a series of events or a series of fixed points doesn't make a society/ culture ancient or modern.

I am not really sure about the point you are making about there being no need for "afternoon" in ancient societies. I realise you've mentioned it 3 times with increasing confidence, but... sorry. Where I live, I woukd describe the people as "traditional". For them, noon (中午) extends from about 11:30 till about 14:00. It used to be longer, but chairman DXP shortened it at some point. It is a time for eating, resting and not interacting with others. Nobody practices piano or has domestic arguments at that time. It is socially unacceptable to call or call on others. Government offices generally shut, in offices people lay out camp beds and sleep, and students mean forward and sleep on their desks.

Afternoon starts here at about 13:30 in winter and at 14:30 in summer. In Hainan - a island near Vietnam - that I stayed on for a summer, the afternoon starts when the rain stops. I don't think "precision" based on the movement of the sun matters when people are arranging their daily activities based on the climate and daily weather. People here don't go out in the rain. Even if they have cars and can drive from the underground car park of their home to the underground car park of the supermarket, they still don't go out. They stay continue their traditional way of life in touch with the weather despite technology.
Hylander wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 3:42 pm
It's also worth noting that in Herodotus, as in Nonnus, μεσημβρία is associated with midday heat.
There is seasonal variability.
Image
Data for Aswan Dam.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by Hylander » Thu May 09, 2019 2:07 am

For them, noon (中午) extends from about 11:30 till about 14:00. It used to be longer, but chairman DXP shortened it at some point. It is a time for eating, resting and not interacting with others. Nobody practices piano or has domestic arguments at that time. It is socially unacceptable to call or call on others. Government offices generally shut, in offices people lay out camp beds and sleep, and students mean forward and sleep on their desks.
What you are describing is a Chinese siesta. This is more or less what μεσημβρία means: not a specific point in time (unlike modern clock-regulated societies) but a vaguely defined midday period during which everyone abstains from strenuous activity, and its origins lie in agricultural work, where the heat of the midday sun makes activity not just difficult but dangerous. "Mad dogs and Englishmen . . . "

And, yes, the heat varies seasonally, but in Egypt, it's hot all year round, and in any event, agricultural activity is generally concentrated in the hot seasons of the year.

In any case, Nonnus isn't specifically referring to the weather inupper Egypt. The Dionysiaca is a poem, squarely in the ancient Greek poetic tradition, and he is invoking meteorological conditions prevailing throughout the Mediterranean world and elsewhere (even in China, apparently)at midday, when the sun's heat dissuades activity and induces torpor. While I haven't searched for this, you will find many instances in ancient Greek and Latin literature (and elsewhere) where agricultural laborers rest during the hottest hours of the day,

I
have found δειλη used by Herodotus for afternoon
But unlike modern "afternoon", it's not a time of day defined specifically to noon, a precise horological or astronomical instant. When Herodotus wants to be more meteorologically precise, he resorts to the phrase ἀποκλινομένης δὲ τῆς μεσαμβρίης, but that's not a translation of "afternoon".

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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Thu May 09, 2019 8:40 am

Nonn.D.48.590 wrote:Κεῖθι δὲ διψώουσα μεσημβριὰς ἔτρεχεν Αὔρη,
And there came running thirsty at midday Aura herself,
Page from LCL.
Hylander wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 2:07 am
a vaguely defined midday period during which everyone abstains from strenuous activity, and its origins lie in agricultural work, where the heat of the midday sun makes activity not just difficult but dangerous. "Mad dogs and Englishmen . . . " 
...
The Dionysiaca is a poem, squarely in the ancient Greek poetic tradition, and he is invoking meteorological conditions prevailing throughout the Mediterranean world ... at midday, when the sun's heat dissuades activity and induces torpor.
Constantinus Philo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 3:09 am
الظهيرة means noon or midday heat
Smyth wrote:1042. Several adjectives of time, place, order of succession, etc., are used as predicates where English employs an adverb or a preposition with its case: ... In such cases the adjective is regarded as a quality of the subject; whereas an adverb would regard the manner of the action.

a. Time, place: χρόνιος late, ὄρθριος in the morning, δευτεραῖος on the second day, ποσταῖος how many days? ὑπαίθριος in the open air.
It seems that if the torpor of the heat of the day that is nuanced by μεσημβρία and ظهيرة is present in the meaning of μεσημβριάς, then seeing that she is not an English woman, the culturally nuanced image evoked by μεσημβριὰς is of a swooning almost sun-struck woman running alone outdoors, fighting off her own natural inclination to rest.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by Hylander » Thu May 09, 2019 12:29 pm

the culturally nuanced image evoked by μεσημβριὰς is of a swooning almost sun-struck woman running alone outdoors, fighting off her own natural inclination to rest.
Aure is a demigoddess or nymph, Breeze personified, and she's seeking a cool place with water and shade to rest in the midday heat.

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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Thu May 09, 2019 4:17 pm

Image
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: μεσημβριάς Nonn.D.48.590. and إبصالية واطس للثلاثة فتية القديسين

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Sun May 12, 2019 7:10 am

In this post I want to consider the length of μεσημβρία.

In my opening post I made the statement that within the context of the Psali that has been under discussion here, the three (Greek) words ἑσπέρας καὶ πρωῒ καὶ μεσημβρίας cover the time period of an entire day - the period of time when people are not sleeping. Alternatively, it could be interpreted as very early in the morning (before "leaving the house"), at noon (when back in your quarters) and in the evening (after returning home before bed).

A distinction between midday and after-midday was brought up based on the Arabic words الظهيرة and عصر.
Constantinus Philo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 11:12 am
No it doesn't and the lapse of time for الظهيرة in those countries is from about 12 pm to 3 pm
Constantinus Philo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 2:40 pm
afternoon there is a different world much in use in Arabic which is asr عصر.
In some climates that may be true. Assuming a Middle to Upper Egyptian location for the composition of the Greek seems possible based on the division of the day into those three periods. The diurnal temperature data for Luxor (ancient "Thebes of the 100 gates") shows a temperature rise from dawn till 12 noon, then constant temperature till dusk, and a cooling in the evening - three temperature periods in the day. There is of course less heat from the sun during the period from 2pm till 6pm but it is still enough to maintain the temperature.

Image
In contrast to that, the Data from Alexandria does show 4 periods; The gradual rise in the morning, the plateau at noon, then the gradual fall in the aftermidday, followed by the cooler evening.

Image

While the μεσημβρία in the Alexandria may be followed by the period of cooling during the aftermidday period, in the Upper Egyptian regions it doesn't.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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