Xenophanes 12(28)

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jeidsath
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Xenophanes 12(28)

Post by jeidsath »

γαίης μὲν τόδε πεῖρας ἄνω παρὰ ποσσὶν ὁρᾶται
ἠέρι προσπλάζον, <τὸ> κάτω δ’ ἐς ἄπειρον ἱκνεῖται.

This one is a bit too much for me.

πεῖρας: gen from πειρα? Why short α?

Something like: "From the limit of the earth this can be seen above aproching air along the ground [lit: along the feet], and what is below comes to the unknown."

I really don't get the precise relationship of γαιης τοδε πειρας and think that "from earth's limit" is probably wrong. I assume that what is being described is the limit of the earth. You look out and see it going to the horizon. And it goes down who knows how far.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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jeidsath
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Re: Xenophanes 12(28)

Post by jeidsath »

I thought that πεῖρας nom. neuter would make the most sense, and looking through LSJ saw that it was a variant of πειραρ which is περας
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Xenophanes 12(28)

Post by seneca2008 »

The Loeb prints πεῖραρ, a conjecture by Maass, followed by a colon which makes the rest easier to translate.

The Earth (D41–D45)
D41 (B28) Ach. Tat. Intr. Arat. 4
γαίης μὲν τόδε πεῖραρ· ἄνω παρὰ ποσσὶν ὁρᾶται
ἠέρι προσπλάζον, τὸ κάτω δ’ ἐς ἄπειρον ἱκνεῖται.
1 πεῖραρ Maass: πεῖραν V: πεῖρας M
2 ἠέρι Diels: καὶ ῥεῖ mss.: αἰθέρι Karsten

D41 (B28) Achilles Tatius, Introduction to Aratus’ Phaenomena
This is the limit of the earth: above, one sees it at our feet
Pressing against the air; but below, it stretches down to the unlimited.

Loeb 2016. Laks and Most
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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jeidsath
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Re: Xenophanes 12(28)

Post by jeidsath »

Thank you for the confirmation. Just to note a couple of other things that I got wrong:

παρὰ ποσσὶν - dative indicates rest, not travel along
ἄπειρον - unbounded not unexperienced (περας/πειραρ/πειρας not πειρα)
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Xenophanes 12(28)

Post by Hylander »

Joel, if you want to try your hand at Xenophanes, try Fragment 13 in Campbell's edition. Also Fragment 10.
Bill Walderman

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Re: Xenophanes 12(28)

Post by jeidsath »

I had no idea he was in Campbell. That's wonderful. I had been reading him in Wright's Presocratics. Looking at Campbell, there are a couple of long fragments that were not present in Wright. 10 and 13 I read the other day though.

10:

πάντα θεοῖς ἀνέθηκαν Ὅμηροός θ᾽ Ἡσίοδός τε
ὅσσα παρ᾽ ἀνθρώποισιν ὀνείδεα καὶ ψόγος ἐστίν,
κλέπτειν μοιχεύειν τε καὶ ἀλλήλους ἀπατεύειν.

Whatever among men is insult and slander,
All this Homer and Hesiod attributed the gods:
stealing and adultery and deceiving each other.

13:

ἀλλ᾽ εἰ χεῖρας ἔχον βόες <ἵπποι τ᾽> ἠὲ λέοντες
ἢ γράψαι χείρεσσι καὶ ἔργα τελεῖν ἅπερ ἄνδρες,
ἵπποι μὲν θ᾽ ἵπποισι, βόες δέ τε βουσὶν ὁμοίας
καί <κε> θεῶν ἰδέας ἔγραφον καὶ σώματ᾽ ἐποίουν
τοιαῦθ᾽ οἷόν περ καὐτοὶ δέμας εἶχον ἕκαστοι.

Wright has ἀλλ᾽ εἴ τοι χεῖράς <γ᾽> εἶχον βόες ἠὲ λέοντες

But if cows and horses had hands, or lions did,
so as to write with hands and do the deeds that men do,
And if they drew the forms of gods and made their bodies,
Horses like to horses and cows like to cows the same
in such manner as is their own form each would have them.

Is ἢ in "ἢ γράψαι" "so as to"? It doesn't seem to be either disjunctive or comparative ἤ?
Is ὁμοίας in agreement with ἰδέας?
In case it's not clear from my translation, I notice that protasis is εἰ + imperfect, so counterfactual present, and apodosis is κε + imperfect, so the same.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Xenophanes 12(28)

Post by Hylander »

10

ὀνείδεα καὶ ψόγος -- something like "things that are cause for condemnation and blame"

13

ἢ γράψαι . . . καὶ . . . τελεῖν . . . I think ἢ is disjunctive, with two senses of ἔχον: "if they had hands or could draw and do the work(s) that men do".

The apodosis begins at ἵπποι μὲν; ὁμοίας agrees with ἰδέας.
In case it's not clear from my translation, I notice that protasis is εἰ + imperfect, so counterfactual present, and apodosis is κε + imperfect, so the same.
Right.
Bill Walderman

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