Mimnermus Fr. 1

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jeidsath
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Mimnermus Fr. 1

Post by jeidsath »

τίς δὲ βίος, τί δὲ τερπνὸν ἄτερ χρυσῆς Ἀφροδίτης; τεθναίην, ὅτε μοι μηκέτι ταῦτα μέλοι, κρυπταδίη φιλότης καὶ μείλιχα δῶρα καὶ εὐνή, οἷ’ ἥβης ἄνθεα γίνεται ἁρπαλέα ἀνδράσιν ἠδὲ γυναιξίν· ἐπεὶ δ’ ὀδυνηρὸν ἐπέλθηι (5) γῆρας, ὅ τ’ αἰσχρὸν ὁμῶς καὶ κακὸν ἄνδρα τιθεῖ, αἰεί μιν φρένας ἀμφὶ κακαὶ τείρουσι μέριμναι, οὐδ’ αὐγὰς προσορῶν τέρπεται ἠελίου, ἀλλ’ ἐχθρὸς μὲν παισίν, ἀτίμαστος δὲ γυναιξίν· οὕτως ἀργαλέον γῆρας ἔθηκε θεός. (10)
But what is life, what is pleasure, apart from golden Aphrodite? Would that I die, when these things no longer interest me. The secret relationship and the wooing-gifts and the bed, which are youth's blossoms to be grasped by men and women. But after painful age comes upon, which (epic habitual τε?) makes a man entirely ugly and bad, evil cares are always vexing him in both phrenes/lungs, nor does he delight facing the rays of the sun, but he is an enemy to men and shown no honor by women. Thus did god decree grievous old age.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Mimnermus Fr. 1

Post by Hylander »

τίς δὲ βίος -- "what life is there?'" "What is life would be τί δὲ βίος. Similarly, τί δὲ τερπνὸν must be "what joy is there?"

ἄτερ -- why not just "without"?

κρυπταδίη φιλότης -- "secret sex". A Homeric/epic euphemism, but barely so.

μείλιχα δῶρα -- "wooing gifts" seems too euphemistic; maybe "seductive gifts"? μείλιχα by itself means something like "gentle".

κρυπταδίη φιλότης καὶ μείλιχα δῶρα καὶ εὐνή, οἷ’ ἥβης ἄνθεα γίνεται ἁρπαλέα ἀνδράσιν ἠδὲ γυναιξίν· -- It's not entirely clear to me how these phrases fit together syntactically. I read them as appositive to ταῦτα, but usually ταῦτα would refer to what goes before, not what follows, which would be ταδε.

ἐπεὶ δ’ -- "but when" would be better, I think.

τ’ -- yes, it's epic τε. It would be tempting to see it as coordinate with καὶ, but that's not possible because it precedes, not follows, αἰσχρὸν.

αἰσχρὸν ὁμῶς καὶ κακὸν -- the opposite of καλον καγαθον?

φρένας -- the seat of the emotions or passions or intellect: best translated here as "heart" or "mind".

παισίν -- "boys"

ἔθηκε -- why not just "made"?
Last edited by Hylander on Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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jeidsath
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Re: Mimnermus Fr. 1

Post by jeidsath »

παισίν -- "boys"
Oh, that's from from παῖς, not πᾶς. But would that be anachronistic for a 7th century poet?
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Mimnermus Fr. 1

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anachronistic for a 7th century poet?
I doubt it.
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Re: Mimnermus Fr. 1

Post by jeidsath »

Dover does not discuss Mimnermus in G.H. (the only index entry for him is tangential) but this on pg. 194 is what I was thinking of:
There are no homosexual elements discernible in the iambic and elegiac poetry which flourished in the middle of the seventh century and is known to us through fragments and citations from the lonians Kallinos and Arkhilokhos and the Spartan Tyrtaios; the absence (so far) of homosexuality from Arkhilokhos may be significant, since he is notably uninhibited in his description of heterosexual behaviour, and so may the lack of any reference in later erotic literature (e.g. Plutarch's Dialogue on Love) to Tyrtaios in connection with homosexual eros among the Spartans for whom, and about whom, he composed.20 Strong evidence for female hornosexuality appears in the Lesbian poetry of Sappho in the early part of the sixth century B.C., and language strongly suggestive of female homosexuality makes a virtually simultaneous appearance in Sparta (cf. p. 179) in the partheneia of Aikman....The earliest expression of male homosexual eros in poetry is therefore non-Dorian, and so is all its expression in the arts for the rest of the sixth century: the earliest scenes of homosexual courtship on Attic black-figure vases (on C42 cf. p. 94) are contemporary with Solon fr. 25
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Mimnermus Fr. 1

Post by Hylander »

Well, as you noted, he doesn't discuss this line of Mimnermus. And that's what we have here.

Achilles' relationship to Patroclus was the subject of discussion in antiquity. In Book 9 of the Iliad, the poet goes out of his way to tell us each of the two heroes bedded down with captive women, which suggests that he is dispelling a rumor or a supposition or innuendo that would have naturally arisen in his day. Of course, it's not clear when the Iliad was composed -- nothing about the origins of the Iliad (or the Odyssey) is certain, despite centuries of speculation.

And absence of evidence doesn't equate to evidence of absence.

I don't think we can infer very much about private lives in the 7th century (apart from Sappho's, which is strong evidence of female homosexuality in the 7th century, if that's when she lived). And we really can't be absolutely sure of Mimnermus' dates or even whether he wrote this poem or when it was written.
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Re: Mimnermus Fr. 1

Post by jeidsath »

Any suggestions for the next poem? I’m heading out on a trip for a few days, but I’ll bring along Campbell.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Mimnermus Fr. 1

Post by Hylander »

Mimnermus 10.
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