Iliad Β questions (was Β36 ἔμελλον)

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jeidsath
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Iliad Β questions (was Β36 ἔμελλον)

Post by jeidsath » Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:55 pm

Β35 ὣϲ ἄρα φωνήϲαϲ ἀπεβήϲετο, τὸν δὲ λίπ’ αὐτοῦ
Β36 τὰ φρονέοντ’ ἀνὰ θυμὸν ἅ ῥ’ οὐ τελέεϲθαι ἔμελλον:
I'm unsure have how to take ἔμελλον. I guess that it would be something like:

"Having said this he departed, and he was left there considering this over in his heart, have I not been destined to accomplish this?"

or

"Having said this he departed, and he was left there considering this over in his heart, has this not been destined to come about?" (But ἅ is neuter, so I wouldn't expect the plural verb.)

Cunliffe has:
2. To be destined or fated to be or to do. With fut. infin.: ἅ ῥ’ οὐ τελέεσθαι ἔμελλον Β36
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Re: Iliad Β36 ἔμελλον

Post by Paul Derouda » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:10 pm

"Having said this he departed, and left him there to consider in his spirit those things (τα) which (α) were not destined to be fulfilled."

Sorry, no accents... α is correlative with τα. I find the plural a bit strange as well, but Homer has occasionally plural verbs with neuter plural. Often there's some emphasis on the plurality of the noun (many individual things as opposed to a collectivity) so I guess that's the case here.

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Re: Iliad Β questions (was Β36 ἔμελλον)

Post by jeidsath » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:38 pm

I see that the next few lines restate Β35/36, though with a singular ἔμελλεν personally referring to Zeus.

B54: Νεστορέῃ -- I think I saw this form of the genitive once in Α, but I don't recall. Is there an explanation for it?
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Re: Iliad Β questions (was Β36 ἔμελλον)

Post by Paul Derouda » Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:29 pm

It's not a genitive but an adjective Νεστορεος "belonging to Nestor/Nestorean".

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Re: Iliad Β questions (was Β36 ἔμελλον)

Post by jeidsath » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:00 pm

Oh, that makes perfect sense. My commentary had Νεστορέῃ == Νεστορεος, which is what confused me. I thought that made it a third declension noun agreeing with Πυλοιγενέος βασιλῆος.
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Re: Iliad Β questions (was Β36 ἔμελλον)

Post by jeidsath » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:36 pm

This isn't really a question, but I'm trying to pay close attention to conditionals. You can let me know if I get it wrong.

Β80 εἰ μέν τις τὸν ὄνειρον Ἀχαιῶν ἄλλος ἔνισπε
Β81 ψεῦδός κεν φαῖμεν καὶ νοσφιζοίμεθα μᾶλλον:

Protasis: εἰ + aorist indicative -- counterfactual
Apodosis: κεν + optative -- remote or speculative supposition (it could have been another aorist instead, and kept the κεν)
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Re: Iliad Β questions (was Β36 ἔμελλον)

Post by mwh » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:21 am

εἰ + aorist indicative is not necessarily counterfactual, though it is here. Consider “If he said that, he lied.”

κεν φαῖμεν vs. κεν(=ἄν) εφαμεν (aor.indic.) is “we'd say” vs. “we'd have said.”

For an overview of conditional sentences see http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-foru ... 3&p=179993.

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Re: Iliad Β questions (was Β36 ἔμελλον)

Post by jeidsath » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:33 am

Β188 ὅν τινα μὲν βασιλῆα καὶ ἔξοχον ἄνδρα κιχείη
Β189 τὸν δ’ ἀγανοῖς ἐπέεσσιν ἐρητύσασκε παραστάς·
Β190 δαιμόνι’ οὔ σε ἔοικε κακὸν ὣς δειδίσσεσθαι,
Β191 ἀλλ’ αὐτός τε κάθησο καὶ ἄλλους ἵδρυε λαούς·
Β192 οὐ γάρ πω σάφα οἶσθ’ οἷος νόος Ἀτρεί̈ωνος·
Β193 νῦν μὲν πειρᾶται, τάχα δ’ ἴψεται υἷας Ἀχαιῶν.
Β194 ἐν βουλῇ δ’ οὐ πάντες ἀκούσαμεν οἷον ἔειπε.
Β195 μή τι χολωσάμενος ῥέξῃ κακὸν υἷας Ἀχαιῶν·
Β196 θυμὸς δὲ μέγας ἐστὶ διοτρεφέων βασιλήων,
Β197 τιμὴ δ’ ἐκ Διός ἐστι, φιλεῖ δέ ἑ μητίετα Ζεύς.
I had to read this section a few times. Agamemnon has given Odysseus his sceptre, and they are walking towards the ships together.

Now whatever king and matchless man he came towards,
he was restraining him with soothing words having stood next to him:
"Friend, it's not right to threaten you like a coward,
But sit yourself down, and seat the rest of your people.
For you are not at all knowledgeably knowing the sort of mind of the son of Atreus,
which now tests, but will quickly smite the sons of the Acheans.
Didn't we all hear what he was saying in council? [The Perseus punctuation isn't right, is it?]
Let him not, having grown angry, do some evil to the sons of the Acheans,
The spirt of god-weaned kings is great,
And his honor is from Zeus, and Zeus the Counsellor loves him.

I feel like I've gotten a few things wrong. I don't really understand what Odysseus is saying about Agamemnon here, especially B195.
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Re: Iliad Β questions (was Β36 ἔμελλον)

Post by mwh » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:45 pm

You don’t have much wrong at all.
190 εοικε it’s seemly, becoming (Homeric use), and σε in ου σε εοικε stands to be subject of δειδισσεσθαι understood as “to be alarmed.” But it’s possible to take it as you do. Then the δειδ. has its usual Homeric transitive meaning, but the position of σε is against it. (I see LSJ says it can be taken either way, but I think it's better to take it as intransitive.)
192 Remember ου πω means “not yet.” οὐ γάρ πω σάφα οἶσθ’ “For you don’t yet clearly know.” He’s about to explain, in the next line, note the asyndeton. οἷος νόος Ἀτρείωνος is literally “what sort of mind (is) Atreion’s.” Then Agam, not his νοος, is the subject of πειραται.
194 can be taken as a statement as in the Perseus text rather than as a rhetorical question. Controversial in antiquity, can be argued either way. (If you want bad arguments, or none, you could set up a poll. :))
195 you have it right. The subjunctive is hortatory, and/or the sort of subjunctive you find after verbs of fearing.

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Re: Iliad Β questions (was Β36 ἔμελλον)

Post by jeidsath » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:14 pm

I was trying to understand the dramatic intent of the Thersites speech, which ends in his call for the same thing that Agamemnon had just called for, as I came across the final lines.

Β241 ἀλλὰ μάλ’ οὐκ Ἀχιλῆϊ χόλος φρεσίν, ἀλλὰ μεθήμων·
Β242 ἦ γὰρ ἂν Ἀτρεί̈δη νῦν ὕστατα λωβήσαιο·

Leaf says that μάλ’ οὐκ is gar nicht. So I think it's this:

But not at all to Achilles is active rage in his phrens, but it stews,
For otherwise, Atreid, now you would commit your last outrage.

It feels like this whole speech could have gone better with the in the council of Kings. Most of it could just as well have been said by Achilles, and seems strange in the mouth of a common soldier. Leaf seems to confirm the temporal problem, relating that the B Scholia says that νῦν is strange here, so long after the council.
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Re: Iliad Β questions (was Β36 ἔμελλον)

Post by Paul Derouda » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:51 pm

You should understand a change of subject at the end of the first line, "but he is μεθήμων", "he's a slacker" or something like that.

I can't explain this better than by saying that you get a feeling about this sort of thing once you've read more Homer. Same thing about δειδισσεσθαι in the last example, I read it like mwh; it just feels more "Homeric", whatever the dictionnary says. I guess some slightly stereotypic syntactic turns fit the hexameter better; although they might be a bit elliptic, you get used to them as you progress.

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