Metrical quantity of the participle, grapsas?

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jswilkmd
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Metrical quantity of the participle, grapsas?

Post by jswilkmd » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:46 pm

I hope you all don't mind me asking for your opinions on something. Thank you in advance for your time and trouble.

In Iliad 6.169, the participle (at least the only way I can scan it) grapsas must be a spondee. Since the preposition en which follows begins with a vowel (and never had an initial digamma as far as I can tell), the aorist active participle nominative masc/fem singular ending, -as, must be intrinsically long. Is this the case?

If so, I imagine it is because it is formed as a third declension substantive from the form grapsant- +s --> grapsants (which would make the alpha long) --> grapsas.

Am I correct here? I don't even know where to look in Pharr, Monro or Smythe to verify this.

Sorry about transliterating the Greek. I'm new to the forum and don't know how to use Greek characters here.

Thanks so much. This looks like a wonderful place to learn Greek.

annis
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Re: Metrical quantity of the participle, grapsas?

Post by annis » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:25 pm

jswilkmd wrote:IIn Iliad 6.169, the participle (at least the only way I can scan it) grapsas must be a spondee. Since the preposition en which follows begins with a vowel (and never had an initial digamma as far as I can tell), the aorist active participle nominative masc/fem singular ending, -as, must be intrinsically long. Is this the case?
Yup.
If so, I imagine it is because it is formed as a third declension substantive from the form grapsant- +s --> grapsants (which would make the alpha long) --> grapsas.
Exactly so.
Am I correct here? I don't even know where to look in Pharr, Monro or Smythe to verify this.
Check the discussion on compensatory lengthening in Smyth (§37), though really the fullest discussion of something like this is going to be in a comparative or historical grammar.

Most dialects of ancient Greek did not like nasal consonants (μ, ν) to come next to sibilants (σ, ζ). When they ran into each other, the first consonant dropped out and the previous vowel was lengthened. For example, the original first declension accusative plural ending was -ανς. But, that couldn't do, so the nu went away and the previous vowel got longer. The same thing is happening in the participles.

I don't know what you're planning to read, but some dialects lengthen the vowels differently. In Lesbian Aeolic, the first declension acc.pl. isn't -ας (long alpha) but -αις. In that dialect, alpha is "lengthened" to -αι- under compensatory lengthening.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

cb
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Re: Metrical quantity of the participle, grapsas?

Post by cb » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:40 pm

hi, will replied before me already but for another ref on consonant changes generally see pharr s608 and ff.:

http://www.textkit.com/files/CP_Homeric ... f#page=267

also for typing in grk characters this is an easy option - just type your text in here and it comes out as unicode:

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~tayl0010/polyton ... utter.html

cheers, chad :)

jswilkmd
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Re: Metrical quantity of the participle, grapsas?

Post by jswilkmd » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:00 pm

Thanks, fellas!

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Anthony Appleyard
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Re: Metrical quantity of the participle, grapsas?

Post by Anthony Appleyard » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:50 pm

The sequence νσ survived in the dialect of Crete, e.g. τονς ελευθερονς .

jswilkmd
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Re: Metrical quantity of the participle, grapsas?

Post by jswilkmd » Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:03 am

Anthony Appleyard wrote:The sequence νσ survived in the dialect of Crete, e.g. τονς ελευθερονς .
That's interesting and is evidence of the sound change. Thanks for sharing.

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