Pindar O. 11

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jeidsath
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Pindar O. 11

Post by jeidsath » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:04 am

(11) Ἔστιν ἀνθρώποις ἀνέμων ὅτε πλείστα χρῆσις· ἔστιν δ’ οὐρανίων ὑδάτων, ὀμβρίων παίδων νεφέλας· εἰ δὲ σὺν πόνῳ τις εὖ πράσσοι, μελιγάρυες ὕμνοι ὑστέρων ἀρχὰ λόγων (5) ⸏τέλλεται καὶ πιστὸν ὅρκιον μεγάλαις ἀρεταῖς· ἀφθόνητος δ’ αἶνος Ὀλυμπιονίκαις οὗτος ἄγκειται. τὰ μὲν ἁμετέρα γλῶσσα ποιμαίνειν ἐθέλει, ἐκ θεοῦ δ’ ἀνὴρ σοφαῖς ἀνθεῖ πραπίδεσσιν ὁμοίως. (10) ἴσθι νῦν, Ἀρχεστράτου ⸏παῖ, τεᾶς, Ἁγησίδαμε, πυγμαχίας ἕνεκεν κόσμον ἐπὶ στεφάνῳ χρυσέας ἐλαίας ἁδυμελῆ κελαδήσω, Ζεφυρίων Λοκρῶν γενεὰν ἀλέγων. (15) ἔνθα συγκωμάξατ’· ἐγγυάσομαι μή μιν, ὦ Μοῖσαι, φυγόξεινον στρατόν μήδ’ ἀπείρατον καλῶν ἀκρόσοφόν τε καὶ αἰχματὰν ἀφίξε- σθαι. τὸ γὰρ ἐμφυὲς οὔτ’ αἴθων ἀλώπηξ (19) οὔτ’ ἐρίβρομοι λέοντες διαλλάξαιντο ἦθος. (20)
There is to men a time when winds are of the most use,
and another when heavenly waters are,
the rainy children of the cloud.
But if anyone were to do well, then melodious songs,
the beginning of later esteem,
is even the sure seal of great deeds.
And this unstinted praise is dedicated to the Olympian victors.
My tongue is willing to shepherd what is our own,
and from god a man blooms into wise understanding in the same way.
Know now, son of Archestratos,
Boy who is Hagesidamos, on account of your boxing
I celebrate loudly a sweetly-sung ornament
upon your crown of golden olive,
paying attention to the race of Zephyrian Locrians.
Lead a revel there with me, I will stand surety
that you will come to them, Muses, not a inhospitable host,
and not one inexperienced of beautiful things,
but a people high in wisdom and spear-wielding.
For neither the red fox nor the roaring lions would alter their nature.
Last edited by jeidsath on Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: its own -> our own, Hagesidame -> Hagesidamos
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.

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Re: Pindar O. 11

Post by Hylander » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:35 pm

Ἀρχεστράτου παῖ Ἁγησίδαμε --"o Hageidamos, son of Arkhestratos". No need for "Boy"

κελαδήσω -- tense!

ἐμφυὲς . . . ἦθος -- innate nature

τὰ μὲν ἁμετέρα γλῶσσα ποιμαίνειν ἐθέλει, ἐκ θεοῦ δ’ ἀνὴρ σοφαῖς ἀνθεῖ πραπίδεσσιν ὁμοίως. -- This is obscure, especially the force of ὁμοίως. However, one thing that leaps out is the contrast τὰ μὲν ἁμετέρα/ἐκ θεοῦ δ’ . I think the idea is "our tongue wants to shepherd our own praise, but it is from the god that a man flourishes with σοφαῖς πραπίδεσσιν just the same. σοφαῖς πραπίδεσσιν probably refers to the poet's wisdom, i.e., his poetry. Maybe something like "we would like to create our own praise poetry, but just the same excellent poetry is the god's gift." Supposedly the scholiast interprets ὁμοίως as "in the same way as the athlete's excellence is a gift of the god." Maybe that's right.

μελιγάρυες ὕμνοι ὑστέρων ἀρχὰ λόγων τέλλεται καὶ πιστὸν ὅρκιον μεγάλαις ἀρεταῖς -- I would interpret this as something like "melodious songs are the beginning of future words [of praise] and a reliable pledge for great deeds [to come].

ἀλέγων -- maybe better "care for" or "having respect for"

συγκωμάξατ’ -- the κωμος is the victory celebration.

(1)Ἔστιν ἀνθρώποις ἀνέμων ὅτε πλείστα χρῆσις·
(2) ἔστιν δ’ οὐρανίων ὑδάτων, ὀμβρίων παίδων νεφέλας·
(3) εἰ δὲ σὺν πόνῳ τις εὖ πράσσοι, μελιγάρυες ὕμνοι ὑστέρων ἀρχὰ λόγων τέλλεται καὶ πιστὸν ὅρκιον μεγάλαις ἀρεταῖς·

This is a device for which the modern term is "priamel". Pindar uses this frequently to begin. Compare this with the famous beginning of Olympian 1:

(1) ἄριστον μὲν ὕδωρ,
(2) ὁ δὲ χρυσὸς αἰθόμενον πῦρ ἅτε διαπρέπει νυκτὶ μεγάνορος ἔξοχα πλούτου:
(3) εἰ δ᾽ ἄεθλα γαρύεν ἔλδεαι, φίλον ἦτορ, μηκέθ᾽ ἁλίου σκόπει ἄλλο θαλπνότερον ἐν ἁμέρᾳ φαεννὸν ἄστρον ἐρήμας δι᾽ αἰθέρος, μηδ᾽ Ὀλυμπίας ἀγῶνα φέρτερον αὐδάσομεν

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priamel

If i'm not mistaken, this is the shortest of Pindar's epinicians -- so short that it doesn't include what is usually the central element, namely, a myth. It consists of just one system of strophe, antistrophe and epode. Pindar usually gives us multiple systems, with all strophes and antistrophes and all epodes in metrical responsion -- showing his astounding metrical virtuosity.

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Re: Pindar O. 11

Post by jeidsath » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:09 pm

Thank you. I'm using M.M. Willcock's notes in his yellow and green Cambridge edition. He presents the scolia's understanding 10, but also adds this quote from O.9:

ἀγαθοὶ δὲ καὶ σοφοὶ κατὰ δαίμον᾽ ἄνδρες
ἐγένοντo

He also sees the same "poets and victors" language in ἀκρόσοφόν τε καὶ αἰχματὰν.

There is a very long discussion of anticipatory μιν in line 17. I thought it seemed straightforward enough, but it seems to get emended to ὔμμιν
κελαδήσω -- tense!
I need to correct my process to get rid of these careless errors. For these short pieces, I read through it once or twice, looking up the vocabulary and looking at notes. Then I read through it again, translating. Then I read through the Greek a few more times and see if my understanding changes on anything. And finally I read through the English once more. But I don't do a careful side-by-side comparison, and so I miss things like this too easily.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.

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Re: Pindar O. 11

Post by mwh » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:33 pm

It seems to me you are too quick to translate. Translation should come only at the very end (if at all; best if you could do without it). First you need to read more carefully, and respect the grammatical data of the Greek. Initial ideas often have to be corrected on closer reading, but first impressions tend to stick, so you should be aiming to avoid the necessity of correcting them by reading accurately in the first place. There’s much more to good reading than grammatical accuracy (especially with Pindar!), but you should never override that.

Writing this I had your Xenophon unseen in mind, but I’ll post it here instead.

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Re: Pindar O. 11

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:55 pm

The Philadelphia Classical Society has a yearly "Fall Professional Day." A highlight includes the free book table. This year a Swarthmore professor brought in the large part of a collection from a colleague who had passed away. I was able to pick up an OCT copy of Pindar, among other items. I may be following your discussions on Pindar a bit more closely now.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

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