Oxford Book of Greek Verse 97, Tyrtaeus

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Oxford Book of Greek Verse 97, Tyrtaeus

Post by jeidsath » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:18 pm

Oxford Book of Greek Verse 97. "How can Man die better?" Tyrtaeus (fl. 685-668 B.C.)

I'll translate the first part of this poem in this first post, to the best of my ability, and continue on with the rest in separate posts to this thread. No special reason, except that I wanted to spend more time with poetry, and the Oxford Book of Greek Verse is a nice place to find random good pieces. I'm translating only because I don't know of another way to have my errors of understanding corrected online.

I'm also demonstrating Textkit's new PRE tag for whitespace PREservation when quoting poetry.

Τεθνάμεναι γὰρ καλὸν ἐπὶ προμάχοισι πεσόντα     ἄνδρ᾽ ἀγαθὸν περὶ ᾗ πατρίδι μαρνάμενον. τὴν δ᾽ αὐτοῦ προλιπόντα πόλιν καὶ πίονας ἀγροὺς     πτωχεύειν πάντων ἔστ᾽ ἀνιηρότατον, πλαζόμενον σὺν μητρὶ φίλῃ καὶ πατρὶ γέροντι     παισί τε σὺν μικροῖς κουριδίῃ τ᾽ ἀλόχῳ. ἐχθρὸν μὲν γὰρ τοῖσι μετέσσεται, οὕς κεν ἵκηται     χρησμοσύνῃ τ᾽ εἴκων καὶ στυγερῇ πενίῃ, αἰσχύνει τε γένος, κατὰ δ᾽ ἀγλαὸν εἶδος ἐλέγχει,     πᾶσα δ᾽ ἀτιμία καὶ κακότης ἕπεται.

The meter is elegiac couplets, and I don't see anything irregular in these first lines.

For it's a noble thing for a brave man to be dead, having fallen in the front lines fighting for what is his homeland.

But to be begging, having deserted his own city and fat fields is the most wretched of all,

Wandering with loved mother, and aged father, and small children and wedded wife.

For he'll be among them a thing hated, to whom he would go giving way to want and hated poverty,

He both dishonors his family, and a shining image convicts him*, all dishonor and badness follows.

* LSJ κατελέγχω: σὲ δὲ μή τι νόον κατελεγχέτω εἶδος Hes.Op.714, cf. Tyrt.10.9 -- but I'm confused by this last line.
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Re: Oxford Book of Greek Verse 97, Tyrtaeus

Post by jeidsath » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:33 pm

ἐχθρὸν μὲν γὰρ τοῖσι μετέσσεται, οὕς κεν ἵκηται χρησμοσύνῃ τ᾽ εἴκων καὶ στυγερῇ πενίῃ, αἰσχύνει τε γένος, κατὰ δ᾽ ἀγλαὸν εἶδος ἐλέγχει, πᾶσα δ᾽ ἀτιμία καὶ κακότης ἕπεται.

I have trouble with the bolded particles, which I don't think that I translated properly above. Looking at it, I think that I'd like to match the outer μὲν and δὲ up with each other, and the inner τε and δὲ with each other.

This would make the inner contents a single thought:

οὕς κεν ἵκηται χρησμοσύνῃ τ᾽ εἴκων καὶ στυγερῇ πενίῃ, αἰσχύνει τε γένος, κατὰ δ᾽ ἀγλαὸν εἶδος ἐλέγχει,

And the outer contents another one:

ἐχθρὸν μὲν γὰρ τοῖσι μετέσσεται...πᾶσα δ᾽ ἀτιμία καὶ κακότης ἕπεται.

But honestly, I'm not sure exactly why αἰσχύνει and κατελέγχει show up as finite verbs where they do.
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κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.

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Re: Oxford Book of Greek Verse 97, Tyrtaeus

Post by anphph » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:33 am

I think you want men ... te ... de, and then de. There's no chiasm. There's just the 'te' joining up with the previous 'men', which is (predictably) followed by 'de'. Then another 'de' functions as another copula (as it does often).

katelenxei kalon eidos -- he refutes his shapeliness, meaning he brings shame upon his beautiful shape. It's synonymous with aisxunei here. The coward is the subject of katelenxei, not the kalon eidos (which is the object). I think that's what the LSJ is saying by telling us to "cf" with Tyrtaeus, since in the Hesiod passage it's the opposite. I tend towards that, but maybe it can also mean "His beautiful shape contradicts him", is at odds with his behaviour.

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Re: Oxford Book of Greek Verse 97, Tyrtaeus

Post by mwh » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:08 pm

τοῖσι … οὕς κεν ἵκηται is just to those he comes/goes to. τοισι could be πασι. He’ll be unwelcome wherever his wanderings take him. The first word is εχθρος not –ον as you have it.

κατὰ δ᾽ ἀγλαὸν εἶδος ἐλέγχει: anphph is right to take αγλαον ειδος as object: he belies/disgraces his handsome form/appearance (sc. by his failure to die for the fatherland), by his cowardly behavior he proves his comeliness false. (The Hesiod line is trickier, and νοος is a preferable variant for νοον.)

ἐχθρὸς μὲν γὰρ τοῖσι μετέσσεται, οὕς κεν ἵκηται
χρησμοσύνῃ τ᾽ εἴκων καὶ στυγερῇ πενίῃ,
αἰσχύνει τε γένος, κατὰ δ᾽ ἀγλαὸν εἶδος ἐλέγχει,
πᾶσα δ᾽ ἀτιμία καὶ κακότης ἕπεται.
anphph makes a good start on the particles. It’s a linear sequence, as he says. But μεν has no answering δε (“μεν solitarium”). It has the potential for a continuation such as “but welcome everywhere is a good man”, but we never get that far; he continues milking the disgrace theme instead, maximal prospective shaming. [Edit. No, on rereading I think μεν is merely asseverative, much like μην. Anyhow it has no answering δε.]
αισχυνει τε γενος is in tandem with the opening εχθρον μεν γαρ couplet (the τε in the previous line merely anticipates the upcoming και in that line, linking the datives). He’ll be εχθρος … and he shames his γενος; this τε is only marginally different from και. Then κατα δ’… ελεγχει is less tightly connected, appropriately for a closing clause, though here another τε would be quite acceptable. Then the real closing clause naturally comes in the pentameter, summing up.

Tyrtaeus works with a very limited poetic vocabulary and range of expression. But he usually manages to get his meaning across.

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Re: Oxford Book of Greek Verse 97, Tyrtaeus

Post by Hylander » Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:31 am

The quintessential poet of Spartan patriotism and military discipline, writing elegy, has no choice other than epic/Ionic.

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Re: Oxford Book of Greek Verse 97, Tyrtaeus

Post by jeidsath » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:47 pm

Thank you. All of that makes it much more clear. I would have thought, however, that with the subject change, and with the switch from μετέσσεται to ἕπεται, that ἐχθρὸς μὲν could be answered by the πᾶσα δ᾽.

Here is the whole of the OBGV selection (thanks to mwh for fixing ἐχθρὸς). I've used the TLG version and edited it to match the OBGV instead of typing it out, to avoid further typos. A translation of the rest follows, though the rest seemed more straightforward.

τεθνάμεναι γὰρ καλὸν ἐπὶ προμάχοισι πεσόντα ἄνδρ’ ἀγαθὸν περὶ ᾗ πατρίδι μαρνάμενον. τὴν δ’ αὐτοῦ προλιπόντα πόλιν καὶ πίονας ἀγροὺς πτωχεύειν πάντων ἔστ’ ἀνιηρότατον, πλαζόμενον σὺν μητρὶ φίλῃ καὶ πατρὶ γέροντι παισί τε σὺν μικροῖς κουριδίῃ τ’ ἀλόχῳ. ἐχθρὸς μὲν γὰρ τοῖσι μετέσσεται, οὕς κεν ἵκηται, χρησμοσύνῃ τ’ εἴκων καὶ στυγερῇ πενίῃ, αἰσχύνει τε γένος, κατὰ δ’ ἀγλαὸν εἶδος ἐλέγχει, πᾶσα δ’ ἀτιμία καὶ κακότης ἕπεται. εἰ δ᾽ οὕτως ἀνδρός τοι ἀλωμένου οὐδεμί’ ὤρη γίνεται οὔτ’ αἰδὼς οὔτ’ ὀπίσω γένεος, θυμῷ γῆς περὶ τῆσδε μαχώμεθα καὶ περὶ παίδων θνήσκωμεν ψυχέων μηκέτι φειδόμενοι. ὦ νέοι, ἀλλὰ μάχεσθε παρ’ ἀλλήλοισι μένοντες, μηδὲ φυγῆς αἰσχρῆς ἄρχετε μηδὲ φόβου, ἀλλὰ μέγαν ποιεῖσθε καὶ ἄλκιμον ἐν φρεσὶ θυμόν, μηδὲ φιλοψυχεῖτ’ ἀνδράσι μαρνάμενοι· τοὺς δὲ παλαιοτέρους, ὧν οὐκέτι γούνατ’ ἐλαφρά, μὴ καταλείποντες φεύγετε, τοὺς γεραιούς· αἰσχρὸν γὰρ δὴ τοῦτο, μετὰ προμάχοισι πεσόντα κεῖσθαι πρόσθε νέων ἄνδρα παλαιότερον, ἤδη λευκὸν ἔχοντα κάρη πολιόν τε γένειον, θυμὸν ἀποπνείοντ’ ἄλκιμον ἐν κονίῃ, αἱματόεντ’ αἰδοῖα φίλαις ἐν χερσὶν ἔχοντα— αἰσχρὰ τάγ’ ὀφθαλμοῖς καὶ νεμεσητὸν ἰδεῖν— καὶ χρόα γυμνωθέντα· νέοισι δὲ πάντ’ ἐπέοικεν, ὄφρ’ ἐρατῆς ἥβης ἀγλαὸν ἄνθος ἔχῃ· ἀνδράσι μὲν θηητὸς ἰδεῖν, ἐρατὸς δὲ γυναιξὶν, ζωὸς ἐών, καλὸς δ’ ἐν προμάχοισι πεσών. ἀλλά τις εὖ διαβὰς μενέτω ποσὶν ἀμφοτέροισιν στηριχθεὶς ἐπὶ γῆς, χεῖλος ὀδοῦσι δακών.
εἰ δ᾽ οὕτως ἀνδρός τοι ἀλωμένου οὐδεμί’ ὤρη
γίνεται οὔτ’ αἰδὼς οὔτ’ ὀπίσω γένεος,
θυμῷ γῆς περὶ τῆσδε μαχώμεθα καὶ περὶ παίδων
θνήσκωμεν ψυχέων μηκέτι φειδόμενοι.
If in this way there is not one concern over a wandering man, nor any regard, nor a family coming after him, let us fight with spirit for this land and die for our children never sparing our lives.
ὦ νέοι, ἀλλὰ μάχεσθε παρ’ ἀλλήλοισι μένοντες,
μηδὲ φυγῆς αἰσχρῆς ἄρχετε μηδὲ φόβου,
ἀλλὰ μέγαν ποιεῖσθε καὶ ἄλκιμον ἐν φρεσὶ θυμόν,
μηδὲ φιλοψυχεῖτ’ ἀνδράσι μαρνάμενοι·
However, young men, fight with each other standing fast, and start neither a shameful flight nor a panic, but make your spirits great and brave in your phrenes, and not hold your lives dear battling with men.
τοὺς δὲ παλαιοτέρους, ὧν οὐκέτι γούνατ’ ἐλαφρά,
μὴ καταλείποντες φεύγετε, τοὺς γεραιούς·
αἰσχρὸν γὰρ δὴ τοῦτο, μετὰ προμάχοισι πεσόντα
κεῖσθαι πρόσθε νέων ἄνδρα παλαιότερον,
Don't flee, leaving behind the older ones, who no longer have nimble knees, the older generation, for this is really a shame [EDIT: or maybe "ugly"? here and below], for an older man falling in the front lines to lie before the youth,
ἤδη λευκὸν ἔχοντα κάρη πολιόν τε γένειον,
θυμὸν ἀποπνείοντ’ ἄλκιμον ἐν κονίῃ,
αἱματόεντ’ αἰδοῖα φίλαις ἐν χερσὶν ἔχοντα—
αἰσχρὰ τάγ’ ὀφθαλμοῖς καὶ νεμεσητὸν ἰδεῖν—
Already having a white head and gray beard, breathing out his brave spirit in the dust, grasping bloody loins in his own hands -- these are shameful things and wrath-provoking to see with the eyes --
καὶ χρόα γυμνωθέντα· νέοισι δὲ πάντ’ ἐπέοικεν,
ὄφρ’ ἐρατῆς ἥβης ἀγλαὸν ἄνθος ἔχῃ·
ἀνδράσι μὲν θηητὸς ἰδεῖν, ἐρατὸς δὲ γυναιξὶν,
ζωὸς ἐών, καλὸς δ’ ἐν προμάχοισι πεσών.
ἀλλά τις εὖ διαβὰς μενέτω ποσὶν ἀμφοτέροισιν
στηριχθεὶς ἐπὶ γῆς, χεῖλος ὀδοῦσι δακών.
and skin stripped bare. But all this is suited to the young, so that the shining bloom of lovely youth can hold. A man is admirable to view for men, lovey for women to view, being alive, but he is noble to see having fallen in the front. But let one stride well and stand fast, both legs planted upon the ground, having bitten his lip with his teeth.
LSJ διαβαίνω: I. intr., stride, walk or stand with legs apart, εὖ διαβάς, of a man planting himself firmly for fighting, Il.12.458, Tyrt.11.21;
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Re: Oxford Book of Greek Verse 97, Tyrtaeus

Post by mwh » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:54 am

εἰ δ᾽ οὕτως ἀνδρός τοι ἀλωμένου οὐδεμί’ ὤρη
γίνεται οὔτ’ αἰδὼς οὔτ’ ὀπίσω γένεος,
θυμῷ γῆς περὶ τῆσδε μαχώμεθα καὶ περὶ παίδων
θνήσκωμεν ψυχέων μηκέτι φειδόμενοι.
If in this way there is not one concern over a wandering man, nor any regard, nor a family coming after him, let us fight with spirit for this land and die for our children never sparing our lives.
ουτ’ οπισω γενεος genitive!, paired with ανδρος αλωμενου.
μηκετι no longer.
ὦ νέοι, ἀλλὰ μάχεσθε παρ’ ἀλλήλοισι μένοντες,
μηδὲ φυγῆς αἰσχρῆς ἄρχετε μηδὲ φόβου,
ἀλλὰ μέγαν ποιεῖσθε καὶ ἄλκιμον ἐν φρεσὶ θυμόν,
μηδὲ φιλοψυχεῖτ’ ἀνδράσι μαρνάμενοι·
However, young men, fight with each other standing fast, and start neither a shameful flight nor a panic, but make your spirits great and brave in your phrenes, and not hold your lives dear battling with men.
αλλα not However. Exhortative, and/or “No, instead (of sparing your lives)”
παρ’αλληλοισι w/ μενοντες. By staying close beside one another their overlapping shields form an unbroken line of joint defense.
μηδε … μηδε is not “neither …nor” (μητε … μητε). The first is “and don’t” (following the positive μαχεσθε). As again below.
αλλα as above.
τοὺς δὲ παλαιοτέρους, ὧν οὐκέτι γούνατ’ ἐλαφρά,
μὴ καταλείποντες φεύγετε, τοὺς γεραιούς·
αἰσχρὸν γὰρ δὴ τοῦτο, μετὰ προμάχοισι πεσόντα
κεῖσθαι πρόσθε νέων ἄνδρα παλαιότερον,
Don't flee, leaving behind the older ones, who no longer have nimble knees, the older generation, for this is really a shame [EDIT: or maybe "ugly"? here and below], for an older man falling in the front lines to lie before the youth,
“who no longer have nimble knees” would be οἷς not ὧν, and ελαφρα will be predicative, “whose knees/legs are…”
αισχρον shameful, both for him and for the youngsters who abandon him.
ἤδη λευκὸν ἔχοντα κάρη πολιόν τε γένειον,
θυμὸν ἀποπνείοντ’ ἄλκιμον ἐν κονίῃ,
αἱματόεντ’ αἰδοῖα φίλαις ἐν χερσὶν ἔχοντα—
αἰσχρὰ τάγ’ ὀφθαλμοῖς καὶ νεμεσητὸν ἰδεῖν—
Already having a white head and gray beard, breathing out his brave spirit in the dust, grasping bloody loins in his own hands -- these are shameful things and wrath-provoking to see with the eyes –
Adjj. again predicative, “with his head already white and his beard grey”
καὶ χρόα γυμνωθέντα· νέοισι δὲ πάντ’ ἐπέοικεν,
ὄφρ’ ἐρατῆς ἥβης ἀγλαὸν ἄνθος ἔχῃ·
ἀνδράσι μὲν θηητὸς ἰδεῖν, ἐρατὸς δὲ γυναιξὶν,
ζωὸς ἐών, καλὸς δ’ ἐν προμάχοισι πεσών.
ἀλλά τις εὖ διαβὰς μενέτω ποσὶν ἀμφοτέροισιν
στηριχθεὶς ἐπὶ γῆς, χεῖλος ὀδοῦσι δακών.
and skin stripped bare. But all this is suited to the young, so that the shining bloom of lovely youth can hold. A man is admirable to view for men, lovey for women to view, being alive, but he is noble to see having fallen in the front. But let one stride well and stand fast, both legs planted upon the ground, having bitten his lip with his teeth.
οφρα while, for as long as.
αγλ.ανθος object not subject. We’ve switched to the singular.
Not “A man.” “He” i.e. a νεος in the bloom of youth.
It’s a bit sick to assert that he’s still καλος (“beautiful”) after being killed, but that's Tyrtaeus all over.
τις = πας τις, every man.
ευ διαβας describes his stance not his stride.

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Re: Oxford Book of Greek Verse 97, Tyrtaeus

Post by jeidsath » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:07 pm

Thank you. I had to read some of them a few times, but I think that I understand all of the comments:
ουτ’ οπισω γενεος genitive!, paired with ανδρος αλωμενου.
When I read it, I thought it worked like "δεῦτε, ὀπίσω μου" in the NT ὀπίσω + gen. But from your comment, ὀπίσω is unconnected? So temporal, "...nor afterwards [any concern] for his family".
“who no longer have nimble knees” would be οἷς not ὧν, and ελαφρα will be predicative, “whose knees/legs are…”
I see what you are saying about the predicative. "knees/legs that are nimble" versus "nimble knees/legs". However, I had some trouble understanding the distinction that you're drawing between οἷς/ὧν. I think I understand it now though: γούνατ’ are the subject of this relative clause, not the object. If it had been οἷς, that would have been accusative of respect.
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Re: Oxford Book of Greek Verse 97, Tyrtaeus

Post by mwh » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:07 pm

ουτ’ οπισω γενεος: it’s “nor [is there any concern] for his γενος behind,” i.e. his descendants (should he be unlucky enough to have any). His genos “before” him, his parents and ancestors, may have been well respected; not so his genos “behind” him i.e. after him. His disgrace will be everlasting, passed on through the generations. Cf. e.g. Aeschylus' Oresteia.

With οις, γουνατα wd still have been subject, to whom there are no longer nimble knees i.e. who no longer have nimble knees. Diff. betn οις & ων is just a matter of idiom.

There’s a good companion piece to this fragment, beginning ουτ’ αν μνησαιμην (eleg.12 West), which fleshes out some of the ideology elided here and is poetically superior. That next, perhaps?
Last edited by mwh on Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Oxford Book of Greek Verse 97, Tyrtaeus

Post by jeidsath » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:59 pm

EDIT: Cross-posted with mwh. I have the ουτ’ αν μνησαιμην in Campbell's book (fr. 9 there), and can do that next before coming back to the rest of what's below. I skimmed fr. 8 in Campbell last night, and was surprised to find several reoccurring phrases that I saw above in OBGV 97.

***

I found the beginning of OBGV 97 on TLG:

(2) . ]...υ̣ι̣..[ . ]..ε̣ θ̣εοπρο[π . ]..φ̣..ενακ[ . ].μ̣α̣ντει̣ασ̣αν̣[ . ]τ̣ε̣ιδε̣τ̣αθ̣ἡ̣.[ (5) . ] π̣άντ’ εἰδεν.[ . ἄ]ν̣δρα̣ς ἀνιστ[αμεν . ]ι̣[.]ηγ̣αλ̣α[ . ]..[...] θ̣ε̣οῖσι φί[λ . ]ω̣ πε̣ι̣θ̣ώμε̣θα κ[ (10) . ]α̣ν̣ ἐ̣γ̣γύτεροι γ̣έν[εος· αὐτὸς γὰρ Κρονίων⸥ καλλιστεφάνου ⸤πόσις Ἥρης Ζεὺς Ἡρακλείδαις⸥ ἄστυ δέδωκε τό̣⸤δε, οἷσιν ἅμα προλιπ⸥όντες Ἐρινεὸν ⸤ἠνεμόεντα εὐρεῖαν Πέλοπ⸥ο⸤ς⸥ νῆσον ἀφικόμ⸤εθα (15) [ ] γ̣λ̣αυκώπ[ι]δος[ @1 (4) Φοίβου ἀκούσαντες Πυθωνόθεν οἴκαδ’ ἔνεικαν μαντείας τε θεοῦ καὶ τελέεντ’ ἔπεα· ἄρχειν μὲν βουλῆς θεοτιμήτους βασιλῆας, οἷσι μέλει Σπάρτης ἱμερόεσσα πόλις, πρεσβυγενέας τε γέροντας· ἔπειτα δὲ δημότας ἄνδρας (5) εὐθείαις ῥήτραις ἀνταπαμειβομένους μυθεῖσθαί τε τὰ καλὰ καὶ ἔρδειν πάντα δίκαια, μηδέ τι βουλεύειν τῆιδε πόλει <σκολιόν>· δήμου τε πλήθει νίκην καὶ κάρτος ἕπεσθαι. Φοῖβος γὰρ περὶ τῶν ὧδ’ ἀνέφηνε πόλει. @1 (10) (5) ἡμετέρωι βασιλῆϊ, θεοῖσι φίλωι Θεοπόμπωι, ὃν διὰ Μεσσήνην εἵλομεν εὐρύχορον, Μεσσήνην ἀγαθὸν μὲν ἀροῦν, ἀγαθὸν δὲ φυτεύειν· ἀμφ’ αὐτὴν δ’ ἐμάχοντ’ ἐννέα καὶ δέκ’ ἔτη νωλεμέως αἰεὶ ταλασίφρονα θυμὸν ἔχοντες (5) αἰχμηταὶ πατέρων ἡμετέρων πατέρες· εἰκοστῶι δ’ οἱ μὲν κατὰ πίονα ἔργα λιπόντες φεῦγον Ἰθωμαίων ἐκ μεγάλων ὀρέων. @1 (6) ὥσπερ ὄνοι μεγάλοις ἄχθεσι τειρόμενοι, δεσποσύνοισι φέροντες ἀναγκαίης ὕπο λυγρῆς ἥμισυ πάνθ’ ὅσσων καρπὸν ἄρουρα φέρει. (7) δεσπότας οἰμώζοντες, ὁμῶς ἄλοχοί τε καὶ αὐτοί, εὖτέ τιν’ οὐλομένη μοῖρα κίχοι θανάτου. @1
(2) . ]...υ̣ι̣..[ . ]..ε̣ θ̣εοπρο[π . ]..φ̣..ενακ[ . ].μ̣α̣ντει̣ασ̣αν̣[ . ]τ̣ε̣ιδε̣τ̣αθ̣ἡ̣.[ (5) . ] π̣άντ’ εἰδεν.[ . ἄ]ν̣δρα̣ς ἀνιστ[αμεν . ]ι̣[.]ηγ̣αλ̣α[ . ]..[...] θ̣ε̣οῖσι φί[λ . ]ω̣ πε̣ι̣θ̣ώμε̣θα κ[ (10) . ]α̣ν̣ ἐ̣γ̣γύτεροι γ̣έν[εος·
prophecy/prophet/prophesy...groan...give an oracle...???...saw all...to wake up the men...torn...dear to the gods...may persuade...closer to the family.
αὐτὸς γὰρ Κρονίων⸥ καλλιστεφάνου ⸤πόσις Ἥρης Ζεὺς Ἡρακλείδαις⸥ ἄστυ δέδωκε τό̣⸤δε, οἷσιν ἅμα προλιπ⸥όντες Ἐρινεὸν ⸤ἠνεμόεντα εὐρεῖαν Πέλοπ⸥ο⸤ς⸥ νῆσον ἀφικόμ⸤εθα (15)
For the Kronion himself, husband to beautifully-crowned Hera, Zeus, gave this town to the Herakleidai, together with whom we, having deserted Erineos the windy, came to the wide isle of the Peloponnese.
[ ] γ̣λ̣αυκώπ[ι]δος[ @1 (4) Φοίβου ἀκούσαντες Πυθωνόθεν οἴκαδ’ ἔνεικαν μαντείας τε θεοῦ καὶ τελέεντ’ ἔπεα·
...of the gleaming eyes...having heard Phoebus bore home from Pytho both the divination of the god and the sure oracles.
ἄρχειν μὲν βουλῆς θεοτιμήτους βασιλῆας, οἷσι μέλει Σπάρτης ἱμερόεσσα πόλις, πρεσβυγενέας τε γέροντας· ἔπειτα δὲ δημότας ἄνδρας (5) εὐθείαις ῥήτραις ἀνταπαμειβομένους μυθεῖσθαί τε τὰ καλὰ καὶ ἔρδειν πάντα δίκαια, μηδέ τι βουλεύειν τῆιδε πόλει <σκολιόν>·
"For the god-honored kings to rule over the council concerning that which Sparta the charming city cares for, and the ancient old men too, and next for the common men obeying straightforward laws to both speak the things that are beautiful and to do everything that is just, and not to deliberate any crooked thing against this city."

I'll get to the rest later.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.

dikaiopolis
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Re: Oxford Book of Greek Verse 97, Tyrtaeus

Post by dikaiopolis » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:36 pm

Another good one you might want to check out is the fr. of Callinus (μέχρις τεῦ κατάκεισθε; it's the only substantial fr.), very similar to Tyrtaeus but better.

Speaking of Campbell, have you seen the new CGLC by Felix Budelmann, Greek Lyric: A Selection? It should be a good substitute for Campbell's selection (though it, rightfully, doesn't include all the elegiac poetry Campbell does).

Hylander
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Re: Oxford Book of Greek Verse 97, Tyrtaeus

Post by Hylander » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:02 pm

Mimnermus' elegy fragments would also be good to check out, as an antidote to Tyrtaeus and Callinus. I also recommend getting a copy of Campbell or Budelmann, which will provide more context than the Oxford Book of Greek Verse.

dikaiopolis
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Re: Oxford Book of Greek Verse 97, Tyrtaeus

Post by dikaiopolis » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:23 am

Hylander wrote:Mimnermus' elegy fragments would also be good to check out, as an antidote to Tyrtaeus and Callinus.
What is life, what is joy without golden Mimnermus?

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Re: Oxford Book of Greek Verse 97, Tyrtaeus

Post by Hylander » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:48 pm

May I die when Mimnermus no longer interests me.

dikaiopolis
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Re: Oxford Book of Greek Verse 97, Tyrtaeus

Post by dikaiopolis » Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:47 pm

Joel: your translations are definitely on the right track. A few notes (sorry I don’t have time for more detail):
jeidsath wrote:I found the beginning of OBGV 97 on TLG:
The text you copied from the TLG is in fact several different fragments from West’s ed. Fr. 2 (from an Oxy. papyrus) and 4 likely come from the same poem, the Εὐνομία poem mentioned by Aristotle and others (it’s debated whether Tyrtaeus himself used this word). Fr. 4 is itself a combination of a quotation in Plutarch’s Lycurgus and the last two couplets from Diodorus (also talking about Lycurgus). It’s all debated in scholarship. For what West has in mind, you can consult his Studies in Greek Elegy and Iambus.
dikaiopolis wrote:(2) . ]...υ̣ι̣..[
. ]..ε̣ θ̣εοπρο[π
. ]..φ̣..ενακ[
. ].μ̣α̣ντει̣ασ̣αν̣[
. ]τ̣ε̣ιδε̣τ̣αθ̣ἡ̣.[ (5)
. ] π̣άντ’ εἰδεν.[
. ἄ]ν̣δρα̣ς ἀνιστ[αμεν
. ]ι̣[.]ηγ̣αλ̣α[
. ]..[...] θ̣ε̣οῖσι φί[λ
. ]ω̣ πε̣ι̣θ̣ώμε̣θα κ[ (10)
. ]α̣ν̣ ἐ̣γ̣γύτεροι γ̣έν[εος·
The reference to a (Delphic?) oracle is used to link this fr. up with fr. 4.

“πε̣ι̣θ̣ώμε̣θα”: let’s obey. Perhaps “let’s obey [kings? They’re] closer in stock [to gods]."
jeidsath wrote:(4) Φοίβου ἀκούσαντες Πυθωνόθεν οἴκαδ’ ἔνεικαν
μαντείας τε θεοῦ καὶ τελέεντ’ ἔπεα·
ἔνεικαν: they brought home
μαντείας: note number (“oracles”)

οἷσι μέλει Σπάρτης ἱμερόεσσα πόλις: οἷσι refering to the kings

εὐθείαις ῥήτραις ἀνταπαμειβομένους: “responding/answering in turn” is probably better than “obeying in turn” for ἀνταπαμειβομένους (contra the LSJ). εὐθείαις ῥήτραις is the most debated part of the fr. For ῥητρα, see the description in the Plut. passage, concerning the right of the Spartan people to speak in opposition. [West thinks the hexameter part of this fr. is the original hexametric oracle, to which Tyrt. added couplets.] Something like “utterances” is fine here.

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