Listening to Greek

[πετ?ης]

Hi guys, and Happy New Year.

I have been studying Pharr's Homeric Greek for a little while. I realized that I own Zondervan's New Testament Greek Vocabulary and I dusted it off and opened it up. It seems to have a lot of words and phrases voiced on the cd with the words printed in an accompany booklet.

So my question is…will the pronunciation found on these discs be close to that of the pronunciation of Homeric Greek? I know already that the constructions of some of the phrases will be different, but I am interested in how the Greek sounds.

Thanks for any light you can shed on this matter.

[Lucus Eques]

Χαῖ?ε, Πετ?η, you were the one who was asking about Greek pronunciation earlier as well, I think (or it was someone else). Anyway, this may be of help, a site that Will has cited on his website:

http://www.oeaw.ac.at/kal/agp/

Stefan Hagel has long been my guide, and I am endeavoring to become as fluent a reciter of Greek as he. Except for the gurgled German 'r' he sadly permitts in his speech, his pronunciation is remarkably good and prosody especially excellent. He sings part of the Iliad here:

http://www.oeaw.ac.at/kal/sh/

[jk0592]

You can listen to a reading of the Iliad by Mr. Stanley Lombardo, a professor of Ancient Greek, at

http://wiredforbooks.org/iliad/

I hope this is of help to you.

[πετ?ης]

Lucus and jk, thanks so much for your help. The links are great.

[ThomasGR]

I feel sorry that I have to disagree with you. On Hagel’s attempt the German pronunciation prevails, despite his effort. He couldn’t even forget the German custom to put the tone on first syllables in words like Socrates (So/crates) and not to the middle syllables (Socra/tes), as the signs demand. Or stretching the first syllable of isos (i/sos) to sound like iiii/sos (though he stressed the first syllable correctly), though it should be a very short one. And kai, it should sound like kaee/, and not ka/ee. In general, he doesn’t; know where to put the stress, Κυμοδόκη becomes Κ?μοδοκη. It’s a crime. One should establish a rule that says only Greeks are allowed to read ancient Greek poems and prose, even if they have to read in any deconstructed pronunciation. Such horrible attempts to render ancient Greek makes me take a gun and shoot.

[annis]

Oy.

I guess my New Year's resolution is to finish that tutorial on the reconstructed pronunciation I've had in mind for more than two years now. With lots of sound files.

[Lucus Eques]

Let's go, Will! get it done before the week is out. I'll post it on my blog. I want to do a whole series on Greek.

[Lucus Eques]

[annis]

get it done before the week is out.

Not if you want it done correctly. Besides, I'll be too busy at the APA meeting soon.

[Lucus Eques]

get it done before the week is out.

Not if you want it done correctly. Besides, I'll be too busy at the APA meeting soon.

Very well, φίλε Οὺίλλ — we shall wait patiently and with much anticipation.

[ThomasGR]

Maybe it's my problem, but I've listened him many times. I think his pitch is a stress, or because of German is forced to stress long vowels more than other syllables and it confuses me. Generally, he has a problem with the signs. Καί is sometimes rendered as ga/i. so sounds it to me. Δω?ίς has become a doo/-ris, stressed or pitched at the second o, to mention only one of all the points. Δωτώ should be doto/, not do/to, or do/to/ as he speaks it sometimes. At this point I'd like to know, how do you speak diphthongs? oi is o/i or oi/, δ' αυτοί is da/utoi?

[Lucus Eques]

[ThomasGR]

[annis]

Very well, φίλε Οὺίλλ

Following Imperial practice, you can use the hellenized version of my name in Latin, Γουλιέλμος.

[Lucus Eques]

Very well, φίλε Οὺίλλ

Following Imperial practice, you can use the hellenized version of my name in Latin, Γουλιέλμος.

As in Roman Imperial? Not so! for that intrusive 'g' is an Italogermanic tendency that's very Middle Ages and out of place for you, my friend. I'm much more comfortable with a more Classical Latin approach.

Or better yet, and much more Homeric: Ϝιλλ

[Arvid]

Καί is sometimes rendered as ga/i. so sounds it to me.

This is the way it's going to sound to an English speaker. Since our unvoiced stops are aspirated, and voiced ones unaspirated, if we hear an unaspirated stop, it sounds like a voiced stop to us. It's so hardwired into our brains by the age of two that it takes enormous amounts of practice to overcome this way of hearing. I haven't achieved it yet, either.

[Lucus Eques]

[1%homeless]

It’s a crime. One should establish a rule that says only Greeks are allowed to read ancient Greek poems and prose, even if they have to read in any deconstructed pronunciation. Such horrible attempts to render ancient Greek makes me take a gun and shoot.

It always puzzles me why the Italians don't get as hot and bothered by the barbarians using reconstructed Latin pronunciation instead of Church Latin ...or do they?

[ThomasGR]

http://www.donpotter.net/Wave/John%203,16.wav

In the above link stressed pronunciation is used and the passage if from the New Testament. But I think the phonemes are quite valid and can be used in classical Greek, except for some errors of theta in θεος, (but it’s correct in σωθη), and in some other cases. I want you to listen how he speaks εις in the sixth line, as well as other diphthongs like αι in αποληται. Also the kappa in various cases. Compare that with Hagel’s pronunciation to see the difference.

[Lucus Eques]

http://www.donpotter.net/Wave/John%203,16.wav

In the above link stressed pronunciation is used and the passage if from the New Testament. But I think the phonemes are quite valid and can be used in classical Greek, except for some errors of theta in θεος, (but it’s correct in σωθη), and in some other cases. I want you to listen how he speaks εις in the sixth line, as well as other diphthongs like αι in αποληται. Also the kappa in various cases. Compare that with Hagel’s pronunciation to see the difference.

Hey, Thomas, thanks for posting this. Unfortunately, that recording only loads through the first few seconds, and on several attempts refuses to load any further.

As for Italians, they generally are pretty set in their ways of pronouncing Latin as if it were Italian, for the most part, but the educated ones will use the Classical Pronunciation. I think the lack of hotheadedness may come from the fact that it's called a different language — Italian versus Latin — while Greek is Greek now or two thousand years ago, even if it is changed utterly. Plus, arrogance combined with ignorance is a very dangerous thing.

[Amadeus]

As for Italians, they generally are pretty set in their ways of pronouncing Latin as if it were Italian, for the most part, but the educated ones will use the Classical Pronunciation.

I guess Luigi Miraglia is not an educated person.

Plus, arrogance combined with ignorance is a very dangerous thing.

You've said it, but arrogance alone can be quite devastating.

[Lucus Eques]

Luigi Miraglia did the Italian version of Athenaze — have you heard him pronounce Latin?

[IreneY]

Well I'm too sleepy to hear follow the links right now but I feel like making the following comments

One should establish a rule that says only Greeks are allowed to read ancient Greek poems and prose, even if they have to read in any deconstructed pronunciation. Such horrible attempts to render ancient Greek makes me take a gun and shoot.

Quite so! Συμφωνώ και επαυξάνω! Let's make this rule and add that those horrible non-Greeks shouldn't be allowed to read modern Greek poems and prose either! And that no non-English speakers are allowed to read English poems and prose! And so on and so forth! Hurray!

I think the lack of hotheadedness may come from the fact that it's called a different language — Italian versus Latin — while Greek is Greek now or two thousand years ago, even if it is changed utterly. Plus, arrogance combined with ignorance is a very dangerous thing.

I couldn't agree more with your last phrase. Whomever and wherever they come from.

[Gonzalo]

Luigi Miraglia did the Italian version of Athenaze — have you heard him pronounce Latin?

There are at Youtube several records of his speeches (mainly, of his "De optima Latine docendi ratione", here it's the text: http://www.culturaclasica.com/lingualat ... atione.pdf) when he came to Spain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N8jK-1Zh9c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc_uySHs ... re=related

[Amadeus]

Luigi Miraglia did the Italian version of Athenaze — have you heard him pronounce Latin?

There are at Youtube several records of his speeches (mainly, of his "De optima Latine docendi ratione", here the text: http://www.culturaclasica.com/lingualat ... atione.pdf) when he came to Spain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N8jK-1Zh9c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc_uySHs ... re=related

Thanks for the links, Gonzalo.

[ThomasGR]

and that no non-English speakers are allowed to read English poems and prose!

They may read whatever they like to read, it's democracy after all we are living in, but death penalty should stand on those that promote those horrible pronunciations as the best standards. Have you ever heard how your prime minister speaking English? Now imagine him reciting Shakespeare. Grrrr.... I'll grab right now the gun.

[Lucus Eques]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUuQD63rkmk&NR=1

He's talking about a chapter of Lingua Latina in that one! mirissime ...

[Gonzalo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUuQD63rkmk&NR=1

He's talking about a chapter of Lingua Latina in that one! mirissime ...

Actually, from what I've understood, he's talking about the chapter XVI (Tempestas), when Medus and his girlfriend Lydia were sailing to Greece and they were surprised by a storm.

Take a look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9RgBj59d9k

[Lucus Eques]

Naturally. And also Navigare Necesse Est, nisi fallor.

Εὖ γε! love the Homer.

Also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9u9po_0inQ&NR=1

What book is he talking about? It must be the equivalent to LINGVA LATINA.

[Lucus Eques]

Od. V 270-277 for the YouTube video:

α?τὰ? ? πηδαλίωι ἰθ?νετο τεχνηέντως
ἥμενος, ο?δέ οἱ ὕπνος ?πὶ βλεφά?οισιν ἔπιπτεν
Πληιάδας τ᾽ ?σο?ῶντι καὶ ὀψὲ δ?οντα Βοώτην
Ἄ?κτον θ᾽, ἣν καὶ ἄμαξαν ?πίκλησιν καλέουσιν,
ἥ τ᾽ α?τοῦ στ?έφεται καί τ᾽ Ὠ?ίωνα δοκε?ει,
οἴη δ᾽ ἄμμο?ός ?στι λοετ?ῶν Ὠκεανοῖο·
τὴν γὰ? δή μιν ἄνωγε Καλυψώ, δῖα θεάων,
ποντοπο?ευέμεναι ?π᾽ ἀ?ιστε?ὰ χει?ὸς ἔχοντα.

His pronunciation and performance are both excellent.

[ThomasGR]

Dolidon was really excellent. He reminds me very much how the priest is reading the gospel in a Greek Orthodox mass. Who said the pitch pronunciation is dead? You may hear it every Sunday.

[Lucus Eques]

Horray! Thomas and I agree on something. Then very well! we have a standard. Now everyone follow that!

[megas_yiannakis]

I agree, im not a fan of any sort of reconstructed pronounciation, but that was very good ... is there anymore recordings or videos by the same performer?

[ThomasGR]

Horray! Thomas and I agree on something. Then very well! we have a standard. Now everyone follow that!

Well, don't cheer that much. He was excellent, with minor errors. I guess he was anguish trying to keep the rhythm. Reading prose, he would be better than Greeks. I hope so

[Bert]

Horray! Thomas and I agree on something. Then very well! we have a standard. Now everyone follow that!

Whatever you can say about Thomas, he will yield.

One should establish a rule that says only Greeks are allowed to read ancient Greek poems and prose, ....

They may read whatever they like to read, it's democracy after all we are living in, ....

[ThomasGR]

Whatever you can say about Thomas, he will yield.

That happens only in cases where I hear a Maschinengewehr pretending to speak a human language. Dolidon's performance was a soft human voice.

[txgreekmann]

Here is a podcast in ancient greek, sort of , I guess.

http://lingualatinaetgraeca.mypodcast.com/

TxGreekmann