Athenaze questions

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Lucus Eques
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Athenaze questions

Post by Lucus Eques » Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:21 pm

I figured I should consolidate my Athenaze questions here, since they will likely grow more numerous in the coming days.

In Chapter VII, we have:

"Ὁ Ὀδυσσε?ς," φησίν, "καὶ οἱ ἑταῖ?οι α?τοῦ πολλὰ καὶ δεινὰ πάσχουσιν, πολλάκις χειμῶνας ὑπέχουσιν, καὶ οἱ μὲν σῴζονται, οἱ δὲ ?ν τῇ θαλάττῃ ἀποθνῄσκουσιν. ..."

Am I to understand from the last phrase that, "and some were saved, but others died in the sea" ? Is that the correct interpretation of the μὲν...δὲ construction?
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Re: Athenaze questions

Post by annis » Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:30 pm

Lucus Eques wrote: Is that the correct interpretation of the μὲν...δὲ construction?
Yes.

Attend to the tense!
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Post by Lucus Eques » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:41 pm

Woot!

Why in particular should I attend to the tense?
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Post by tico » Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:09 pm

Lucus Eques wrote:Woot!

Why in particular should I attend to the tense?
Verbs are in present tense, not in past, as in your translation.

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Post by Lucus Eques » Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:31 pm

Ah! true. The passive voice mistaken as past ... rookie mistake. Thanks.
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Post by Interaxus » Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:07 am

Prompted by Luci question, I peeked ahead to Chapter 6 and noticed some (language) discrepancies between my Italian edition and my 2 second-hand English editions:

English Book 1, revised 1st edition, 1990
Exercise 6k
4. επει γιγνεται η νυξ, η πα?θενος ε?χεται π?ος τας πυλας.
When night falls, the girl goes to the gates.

Italian Book 1, 2002
Esercizio 6m
4. Επει νυξ γιγνεται, η πα?θενος ε?χεται π?ος τας πυλας.
When night falls, the girl goes to the gates.

English Book 1, 2nd edition, 20?? (titlepage missing - used book!)
Exercise 6η
7. επει νυξ γιγνεται, η Α?ιαδνη π?ος το δεσμωτη?ιον π?οσε?χεται.
When night falls, Ariadne approaches the prison.

My problem concerns the ’night falls’ phrase: a) why the change in word order? b) why did ’night’ lose its 1990 definite article?

I can’t comment accents because I haven't worked out how to write them on my XP pc yet. :cry:

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Int

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Post by Lucus Eques » Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:11 am

Is ?ν enclitic or proclitic?
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Post by annis » Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:16 pm


William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by annis » Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:17 pm

Interaxus wrote:My problem concerns the ’night falls’ phrase: a) why the change in word order? b) why did ’night’ lose its 1990 definite article
This takes us into tricky waters of stylistics and idiom. My guess would be someone found an example in actual Greek which caused them to update the wording.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by Lucus Eques » Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:36 pm

Alrighty! thanks. I was asking because I see

Ὀδυσσεὺς ?ν τῷ

right next to

Ὀδυσσε?ς τε καὶ

So I figured due to the accute/grave difference on Odysseus that ?ν must be proclitic, but τε naturaly is enclitic.
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Post by Interaxus » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:43 am

William:

That sounds plausible. Ευχα?ιστώ! (Please excuse intrusion of modern Greek. I havent learnt 'gratias tibi ago' in ancient Greek yet). :(

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Int

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Post by Lucus Eques » Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:12 am

Will taught me that one, Interaxe:

Χά?ιν σοι ἔχω!
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Post by Lucus Eques » Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:25 am

I thought up another question, this time about prosody:

Are word accents where one MUST change pitch, or merely places where one MAY raise the pitch? I've been treating them as necessary all this time; a few of them on occasion feel artificial.
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Post by Interaxus » Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:18 pm

William και Luce:

Χά?ιν υμιν ἔχω!

Or is there some dual dative pronoun around the corner?

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Post by annis » Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:50 am

Lucus Eques wrote:Are word accents where one MUST change pitch, or merely places where one MAY raise the pitch?
I've never seen it suggested that the accent in Greek was anything but obligatory.
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τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by annis » Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:53 am

Interaxus wrote:Or is there some dual dative pronoun around the corner?
There is — σφῷν — but I doubt you'd find it terribly often in prose.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by jk0592 » Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:17 am

Or is there some dual dative pronoun around the corner?
You will not find this in Athenaze...

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Post by Interaxus » Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:31 am

You will not find this in Athenaze...
Can't say I'm sorry.

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Int

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Post by Lucus Eques » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:49 am

Is there a major difference between ὅτε and ἔπεί?
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Post by Bert » Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:37 am



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Post by jk0592 » Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:48 am

Also, be aware that, in the texts that you will encounter in Athenaze, ?πεί is a conjunction meaning "when or since" , while ὅτε is an adverb meaning "when".
Jean K.

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Post by Lucus Eques » Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:13 am

Is this accentuation correctly marked?

... μακά?ιοι μέν εἰσί σοί γε πατὴ? καὶ μήτη? ...
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Post by Lucus Eques » Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:21 am

And this:

... Ἱκτε?ω σε ἱμάτιά τέ μοι πα?έχειν ...
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Post by Lucus Eques » Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:16 pm

In Athenaze, I frequently see, for example, ? φοβε?ὸς γίγας, but εἰσέ?χεται γίγας φοβε?ός. For the indefinite latter, should I translate this as "a frightening giant comes in," or is it more accurate to say "a giant comes in that is frightening" ?
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Post by Bob Manske » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:26 pm



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Post by annis » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:55 pm


William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by annis » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:56 pm


William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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