Unit 21, Part II, Number 4

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Lukas
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Unit 21, Part II, Number 4

Post by Lukas » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:01 pm

I am supposed to write, "The old men said that the women must obey the laws, while the old women said that the men had proven themselves [use appropriate tense of γὶγομαι] responsible for terrible evils to the city."

The answer book wrote:

Image

I wrote, "οἱ γέροντες ἔφασαν δεῖ τὰς γυναῖκας τοῖς νομοῖς πείθεσθαι, αἱ δὲ γραῦες ἔφασαν τοὺς ἄνδρες αἰτίους δεινῶν κακῶν τῆ πολεῖ γενέσθαι."

Three questions:
1. Why did the answer book place δεῖ in the infinitive? I thought that I was supposed to use an impersonal verb with the infinitive of the finite verb?

2. Do I need to place μέν in the first phrase?

3. I thought the word order generally placed the infinitive and then the finite verb toward the end, but the author has ἔφασαν at the end of the first phrase. I also do not know if the adjective at the end or the impersonal verb placement is just free Greek word order or if there are other reasons for it? I am OK if the word order is too beyond me for an answer.

Note: I placed my Greek in a larger font, because the normal font is kind of a strain to read.
Last edited by Lukas on Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:38 am, edited 4 times in total.
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seneca2008
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Re: Unit 21, Part II, Number 4

Post by seneca2008 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:15 am

The old men said that the women must obey the laws
This is indirect speech. What is the corresponding direct statement ? Which finite verb has to be written as an Infinitive when the direct speech is turned into indirect speech?
Do I need to place μέν in the first phrase?
The old men said ......, while the old women said ......

So μέν...... δὲ expresses this antithesis. Yes you do need it.

ἄνδρες Is either miscopied or wrong.

I wouldn’t worry too much about the word order. It’s much more important that you improve your understanding of how to turn direct speech into indirect speech.

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Re: Unit 21, Part II, Number 4

Post by Lukas » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:28 am

seneca2008 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:15 am
The old men said that the women must obey the laws.

This is indirect speech. What is the corresponding direct statement ? Which finite verb has to be written as an Infinitive when the direct speech is turned into indirect speech?
"δεῖ τὰς γυναῖκας τοῖς νομοῖς πείθεσθαι." ?
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seneca2008
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Re: Unit 21, Part II, Number 4

Post by seneca2008 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:52 am

So what is the finite verb which needs to be put into the infinitive?

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Re: Unit 21, Part II, Number 4

Post by Lukas » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:54 am

Not sure, as I already have a finite verb in the infinitive.
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Re: Unit 21, Part II, Number 4

Post by seneca2008 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:23 am

An infinitive is not a finite form. So which word is the finite verb in your direct statement?

“ The infinitive, a nonfinite form of the verb (see Unit 5 Prelim.), is a verbal noun. As a verb form it has tense (or aspect) and voice and can govern noun complements and adverbial modifiers. As a noun, it can serve as subject, object, and the like. In English the infinitive (formed with to plus the verb) shares the job of verbal noun with the gerund (formed from the present stem of a verb plus -ing). In Greek there is only the infinitive to fulfill the verbal noun function.‘

P. 77 Mastronarde

Lukas
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Re: Unit 21, Part II, Number 4

Post by Lukas » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:31 am

δεῖ
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Re: Unit 21, Part II, Number 4

Post by seneca2008 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:30 am

So do you now understand what is going on in this sentence? It doesn't matter that δεῖ is impersonal.

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Re: Unit 21, Part II, Number 4

Post by Lukas » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:13 pm

Got it.
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Re: Unit 21, Part II, Number 4

Post by Hylander » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:19 pm

Think of it this way: in-finitive is not finite.

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