Unit 20, a Word from Clearchus

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Lukas
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Unit 20, a Word from Clearchus

Post by Lukas » Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:38 pm

I am having some trouble translating this passage, especially the last line. Here is the passage:

Image

Here is how I am translating it so far:

"And never will anyone say, the men soldiers, that I led the Greeks to the Barbarians and next left the Greeks and chose the friendship of the Barbarians. But since you were not willing to obey me, I will obey you." Clearchus said these things. For he believed that the soldiers were to him both fatherland and friends and allies. The soldiers who praised both of those [of them, belonging to those/them?] and the other things.
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Hylander
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Re: Unit 20, a Word from Clearchus

Post by Hylander » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:20 pm

The last sentence:

οι δε στρατιωται οι τ᾽εκεινου και οι αλλοι -- "The soldiers, both his own and the others,"

ταυτ᾽ επηνεσαν -- "praised/approved these things", less literally, "approved this".

και επειτα ελιπον μεν τους Ελληνας την δε των βαρβαρβν φιλιαν ειλομην -- you need to capture the force of the particles, especially men de: ". . . that I led Greeks to the barbarians and then [not "next" here] abandoned the Greeks and chose [instead] the friendship of the barbarians."

Lukas
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Re: Unit 20, a Word from Clearchus

Post by Lukas » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:31 pm

How did you get "his own" from the last sentence? I am having a lot of trouble with that one.
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Hylander
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Re: Unit 20, a Word from Clearchus

Post by Hylander » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:55 pm

εκεινου -- "of that man", "of him", i.e. of Clearchus. "The soldiers of Clearchus" is equivalent to Clearchus' own soldiers in this context, where the idea is that not only his [own] soldiers but the rest of the Greek soldiers approved his speech. The τ᾽ . . . και particles, by linking the two groups of soldiers more tightly than a simple και would, reinforces the idea that both groups, not just his own troops, approved his speech.

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Re: Unit 20, a Word from Clearchus

Post by mwh » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:43 pm

And ἐθέλετε is present tense.

οὐκ ἐθέλετε means “you refuse.”

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seneca2008
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Re: Unit 20, a Word from Clearchus

Post by seneca2008 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:25 pm

I think you are also having trouble with “ ὦ ἄνδρες στρατιῶται,”. Do you recognise the case? It’s a formula for example in Lysias on the murder of Eratosthenes you have “ὦ ἄνδρες”, in Plato Apology “ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι” and in Lysias 12 “ ὦ ἄνδρες δικασταί“. This last one has an old fashioned but idiomatic translation in “gentlemen of the jury” but we would not usually translate the apostrophe ὦ. Men of the army seems a bit clunky but the way you have it isn’t quite right. My fellow soldiers might do unless anyone has a better idea?

On a minor general point I don’t think it’s a good idea to edit your posts to take account of comments people make. I spent some time reading one thread where I couldn’t work out how the replies matched what you had written. If for some reason you think it’s a good idea - I don’t - please put in capitals at the head of your post a message saying what you have done. We want to make threads as intelligible for later readers as possible.

It’s ok to make mistakes we all make them.

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Re: Unit 20, a Word from Clearchus

Post by Lukas » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:39 pm

Thanks. Yes, I was not sure of how to translate the phrase and the literal was all I could think of, but it seemed awkward.
Noted about editing the posts.
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Re: Unit 20, a Word from Clearchus

Post by seneca2008 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:07 pm

Lukas wrote: Yes, I was not sure of how to translate the phrase and the literal was all I could think of, but it seemed awkward.
We spoke about this and you now recognise that this phrase is in the vocative case. The giveaway is “ ὦ”.

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