Unit 18 Reading

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Lukas
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Unit 18 Reading

Post by Lukas » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:26 am

I had trouble mentally reading the first passage in the reading passage of Unit 18 of Introduction to Attic Greek, so I wrote down what I could. I especially had trouble translating δέ. It appears five times (4 elided). Here is the passage:

Image

In the third sentence, is τοὺς παῖδασ an internal accusative? How do I translate each δέ? Do I leave them untranslated and consider the sentences to be a contrast to one another?

Here is my rough translation so far:

Two children are born of Darius and Parysatis. When Darius was about to die, he deliberated to be present with the children. While he sends messengers who will summon Cyrus, Cyrus arrives next to the side of his father. Later Cyrus fights concerning the rule of his unjust brother, and neither will he fare well nor suppose victory, but he falls in the battle. Finally, the brother will rule instead of that one.
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Re: Unit 18 Reading

Post by seneca2008 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:30 pm

A good first try. Some thoughts below which others may want to correct or add to.

As I have said before only translate δέ when it is natural to express it in English. (That was in terms of of an antithesis with μέν.) On its own its more like a simple connective "and" which we wouldn't translate.

γίγνονται is a historic present: were born

ἐβούλετο is from βούλομαι (wish)

τοὺς παῖδας is acc. so can't be "with" (think of τοὺς παῖδας παρεῖναι as the object of ἐβούλετο he wished that his children were present )

why while? I don't see it in the text and its not a good translation of δέ see above

οἴσεται is the future of φέρω were you thinking of οἴομαι?

I think in the last sentence you can have an antithesis the[ one] brother instead of the other.

have another go.

Edit: μαχεῖται is future. Make sure you check your tenses when you translate.

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Re: Unit 18 Reading

Post by Lukas » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:49 pm

Yes. I was thinking of οἴομα. I was also thinking of Βουλεύω instead of Βούλομαι.
I used "with" because the author on page 141 stated that sometimes I can use prepositions with internal accusatives.
I was also thinking that "the children" belonged to the "be" verb.
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Re: Unit 18 Reading

Post by seneca2008 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:32 pm

"I was also thinking that "the children" belonged to the "be" verb."

Well they do. Look at page 79 accusative subject of the infinitive perhaps that's a more accurate way of thinking about it.

Incidentally I think ἀδίκως is an adverb and belongs with μαχεῖται.

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Re: Unit 18 Reading

Post by Lukas » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:15 pm

I am going back and rewriting the verbs I made a mistake on, such as βούλομαι instead of βουλεύω.

What is bothering me the most is figuring out what kind of accusative "the kids" is and if I can place a preposition in the phrase. So does the phrase belong to both verbs? That is also confusing knowing what verb(s) it belongs to.
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Re: Unit 18 Reading

Post by seneca2008 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:09 pm

ἐβούλετο τοὺς παῖδας παρεῖναι

What preposition do you need? He wished his children to be present. The construction is verb (ἐβούλετο) taking an accusative and infinitive construction (τοὺς παῖδας παρεῖναι). Did you look at p.79?

“Subject of the Infinitive. When the subject of the action denoted by the infinitive is ex­pressed in Greek, it is normally in the accusative case, unless it is the same person or thing as the subject of the finite verb.”

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Re: Unit 18 Reading

Post by Lukas » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:25 pm

How do I know if it is, "He wished his children to be present" or "He wished to be present with his children?"
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Re: Unit 18 Reading

Post by seneca2008 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:53 pm

The Greek says he wished his children to be present. τοὺς παῖδας Is the subject of the infinitive. I don’t think you need to think about alternative ways the Greek might have been written.

If I saw “He wished to be present with his children " I would assume Darius was going to go and visit his children. ( I would also think this was not idiomatic English. ) The Greek would then be different. Perhaps thinking of πάρειμι as “at hand” you can see this formulation doesn’t make sense.

I fear I can’t be explaining this very well.

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Re: Unit 18 Reading

Post by jeidsath » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:13 pm

How do I know if it is, "He wished his children to be present" or "He wished to be present with his children?"
Well, first look at what the sentences might be outside of a wish clause.

1) His (the) children are present - οἱ παῖδες πάρεισι. (Note the plural verb. The children are the subject.)
2) He is with his children - τοῖς παισὶ πάρεστι. (Note the singular verb. Darius is the subject.)

If Darius wished #1, how is that expressed? The subject of #1 becomes accusative and the verb becomes an infinitive:

ἐβούλετο τοὺς παῖδας παρεῖναι - He wished his children to be present.

What if he wished #2? The subject of #2 is Darius, and he's also the subject of the main clause, so it's left unexpressed in the subclause. τοῖς παισί is an object, so it's unaffected.

ἐβούλετο τοῖς παισὶ παρεῖναι - He wished to be present with his children.
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Re: Unit 18 Reading

Post by seneca2008 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:19 pm

I used "with" because the author on page 141 stated that sometimes I can use prepositions with internal accusatives.
There is no internal accusative here. Look again at the examples on p 141 to see what internal accusative are.

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Re: Unit 18 Reading

Post by seneca2008 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:20 pm

Thank you Joel for your clarity.

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Re: Unit 18 Reading

Post by Lukas » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:22 pm

Ευχαριστῶ Seneca and Joel!

Seneca, you did fine explaining it. I was just having a huge struggle with this passage. I got some verbs wrong, plus I struggled a long time trying to figure out if καλοῦσι was some type of dative noun or a verb. Plus I was trying to figure out what type of accusative I was dealing with. Plus I am still struggling with if and how to translate δέ.
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Re: Unit 18 Reading

Post by seneca2008 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:57 pm

Lukas did you know that this passage starts off at least as an adaptation of Xenophon’s Anabasis?

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Re: Unit 18 Reading

Post by Lukas » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:04 pm

seneca2008 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:57 pm
Lukas did you know that this passage starts off at least as an adaptation of Xenophon’s Anabasis?
I did not.
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Re: Unit 18 Reading

Post by mwh » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:35 pm

δέ can be translated by “and” or by “but” or (often best) by nothing at all, according to the context. Often it’s just a nondescript sentence connective, as in this passage.

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Re: Unit 18 Reading

Post by jeidsath » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:23 am

mwh wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:35 pm
δέ can be translated by “and” or by “but” or (often best) by nothing at all, according to the context. Often it’s just a nondescript sentence connective, as in this passage.
I was thinking of starting a thread on this, but didn't get to it before your comment. I feel like the importance of δέ in Greek versus it's non-importance in turning Greek into English prose are two different issues. When reading it tells you at least a couple of important things, 1) the topic has shifted, 2) that the upcoming words aren't really subordinate. A bit like は in Japanese.

Whether a beginner needs to know much about δὲ probably depends a lot on whether they are learning to read or translate.
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Re: Unit 18 Reading

Post by markcmueller » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:27 am

Thanks, Joel! I hadn't been conscious of the fact that 'δέ' marks a phrase as being not subordinate to the previous. Now, of course, it seems obvious. It seems that the English translation of a Greek particle sometimes fails to capture its function in the Greek.

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Re: Unit 18 Reading

Post by jeidsath » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:47 pm

Well, all I should say is that it often signals this. Someone with more Greek may be able to point out exceptions. But read through a few pages of Xenophon (who is a monotonous δε user) with attention to the phrases that don't have δε, and you'll know as much as I do about it.
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