exercise in Morwood, query

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hlawson38
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exercise in Morwood, query

Post by hlawson38 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:08 pm

Context: Isolated sentences to translate in Morwood, Oxford Grammar of Classical Greek, p. 126.
3. τὰς ἡδονας θὴρευε τὰς μετὰ δὸξης. (Isocrates, 1.16)
Translation: Seek pleasures along with a good reputation.

Question: Is it correct that the second τὰς modifies ἡδονας, with which it agrees?

Question: Did I correctly read δὸξης as genitive singular?

Question: What significance has the lack of a definite article agreeing with δὸξης?

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bedwere
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Re: exercise in Morwood, query

Post by bedwere » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:40 pm

Seek pleasures, those with good repute

1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) General good repute rather than specific.

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Re: exercise in Morwood, query

Post by Aetos » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:57 pm

Hi Hugh,
I'm going to stick my neck out and try to answer these, even though I'm a bit of a tyro myself in Greek:
hlawson38 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:08 pm
Question: Is it correct that the second τὰς modifies ἡδονας, with which it agrees?
I think that τὰς μετὰ δόξης is a prepositional phrase in the attributive position of τὰς ἠδονάς, so yes, in that sense it modifies τὰς ἠδονἀς. It probably wouldn't be good Greek, but you could write the sentence this way:
θήρευε τὰς μετὰ δόξης ἠδονὰς. Placing the imperative verb between the object and its modifier lends emphasis to both.
hlawson38 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:08 pm
Question: Did I correctly read δὸξης as genitive singular?
Yes, in Attic prose μετὰ takes the genitive when the meaning is "with"
hlawson38 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:08 pm
Question: What significance has the lack of a definite article agreeing with δὸξης?
Smyth 1128: "The article is very often omitted in phrases containing a preposition"
Bedwere, I believe, is talking about Smyth 1135: "The article may be omitted with some concrete words conveying a general idea". Hugh, I can't tell you which is correct. I like S1128, but S1135 could be just as applicable.

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Re: exercise in Morwood, query

Post by seneca2008 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:06 pm

I am not sure your translation is quite right because you have ignored the force of the second τὰς. Something like "pursue the pleasures which are of/ go along with/ accompany [a] good reputation". The way you have it seems to me to say that pleasures and a good reputation are separate objects of pursuit.

I see bedwere has commented and he knows what he is talking about so perhaps I am wrong.

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Re: exercise in Morwood, query

Post by bedwere » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:15 pm

seneca2008 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:06 pm
I am not sure your translation is quite right because you have ignored the force of the second τὰς. Something like "pursue the pleasures which are of/ go along with/ accompany [a] good reputation". The way you have it seems to me to say that pleasures and a good reputation are separate objects of pursuit.

I see bedwere has commented and he knows what he is talking about so perhaps I am wrong.

I actually agree with your translation, Seneca.

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Re: exercise in Morwood, query

Post by Aetos » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:18 pm

seneca2008 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:06 pm
I see bedwere has commented and he knows what he is talking about so perhaps I am wrong.
I think you and Bedwere are really saying the same thing-that τὰς μετὰ δόξης is taken with τὰς ἠδονάς and not as a separate object. You translate it with a relative (adjectival) clause, Bedwere with a prepositional phrase.

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Re: exercise in Morwood, query

Post by jeidsath » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:20 pm

θήρευε - θήρ is a beast, a quarry, so "hunt" or "chase"

τὰς ἡδονὰς τὰς μετὰ δόξης - literally "the 'in conjunction with good opinion' pleasures". Specifying the pleasures being sought, not how they are hunted.

LSJ mentions "ὅτι οὔτ᾽ ἂν ὁ ἐπιεικὴς πάνυ τι ῥᾳδίως γῆρας μετὰ πενίας ἐνέγκοι" from the Plato as an example of this use of μετά. In the Republic passage it's tied to the verb, here to the noun.

EDIT:
In the Republic passage it's tied to the verb, here to the noun.
Actually I don't know this. Maybe "γῆρας μετὰ πενίας" is the unit.
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Re: exercise in Morwood, query

Post by mwh » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:12 pm

Joel’s self-edit is right. Since there’s no article with γῆρας there’s no article with μετὰ πενίας (which is technically free to be taken with either the noun or the verb, but only makes sense with the noun).

But bedwere, Aetos and seneca all already put Hugh right on the Isocrates sentence. What made your first attempt wrong, Hugh, was your not taking proper account of the τὰς before μετὰ δόξης, as seneca explained. You'll have to come to terms with Greek's use of the definite article and how (among other things) it helps distinguish predicative from attributive components. In Latin you just have to decide for yourself, without the aid of such determinants.

The continuation goes:
τέρψις γὰρ σὺν τῷ καλῷ μὲν ἄριστον, ἄνευ δὲ τούτου κάκιστον.
“For pleasure in conjunction with the noble (is) a very good thing, but without that a very bad one.”
These dreary maxims were very popular with schoolmasters, who had their students copy them out time and again.

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Re: exercise in Morwood, query

Post by Hylander » Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:22 pm

τὰς ἡδονας θὴρευε τὰς μετὰ δὸξης.

I hope it didn't escape attention that this is a line of verse: the meter is dogmatic trimeter.

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Re: exercise in Morwood, query

Post by hlawson38 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:57 pm

Many thanks for the comments and corrections. The repeated definite article is a grammatical feature I'm aware of, but with little understanding. I'll review definite articles in Morwood and in Mastronarde. If not cured by them, I can repair to Smythe.

Added later:

I make many mistakes of this kind, because self-instruction is less vivid than face-to-face teaching. Morwood's explanation includes exactly this point, with an example, but I missed it.

Thanks to Hylander for the verse ID. One of my Cicero books, which I bought used, has a few penciled markings indicating metrical matters in a prose oration, no doubt the work of a student paying attention in class.

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Re: exercise in Morwood, query

Post by seneca2008 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:32 pm

hlawson38 wrote:I make many mistakes of this kind, because self-instruction is less vivid than face-to-face teaching. Morwood's explanation includes exactly this point, with an example, but I missed it.
I make lots of mistakes and I have a classics degree. its just hard work learning Latin and Greek. Have you read what Dickey says in her introduction to Greek Prose Composition?

"As necessary as memorization is consolidation. It is an inescapable fact that for most people, Greek grammatical forms and syntactic rules have a tendency to depart rapidly from the mind soon after being learned. One must simply accept this fact and learn the material repeatedly; to this end there are review exercises scattered throughout the book, and it is a good idea to re-memorize the vocabulary and forms of the relevant chapters before doing these exercises. One way to improve one’s retention rate is to be scrupulous about correct accentuation, because once one has learned each form with its proper accent, one knows the form itself considerably more solidly than one does when one has learned only the form. For this reason a brief explanation of the accent rules and exercises in their use are provided, and all users of this book who do not already have a firm grasp of the accent system are encouraged to do these exercises before progressing to the chapters proper."

You are doing well and you are not alone!

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Re: exercise in Morwood, query

Post by mwh » Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:04 am

Hylander wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:22 pm
τὰς ἡδονας θὴρευε τὰς μετὰ δὸξης.

I hope it didn't escape attention that this is a line of verse: the meter is dogmatic trimeter.
A joke? a “dogmatic trimeter” being one that μετὰ δόξης makes unmetrical? A good many of these maxims have metrical affinity without being metrical, and this is one of them. (The alpha can’t be long.) Attempts have been made to “restore” them to metrical form, but too many are recalcitrant. The immediately preceding one is τοὺς μὲν θεοὺς φοβοῦ, τοὺς δὲ γονεῖς τίμα, τοὺς δὲ φίλους αἰσχύνου, τοῖς δὲ νόμοις πείθου, which looks at first sight as if it would be easy to convert, but just try it! (But we do have these particular commandments in trimeter form, and the Life of Aesop embeds trimeters which can be pulled out once they’re recognized.)

Talking of accents, I take it you can’t do acutes, Hugh.

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Re: exercise in Morwood, query

Post by hlawson38 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:52 pm

mwh wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:04 am

Talking of accents, I take it you can’t do acutes, Hugh.
Sharply observed, mwh. The spirit is willing but my proofreading is weak.

Further down on Morwood's definite-article exercise, page 126, I find this:
6. τὰς τριήρεις ἀφείλκuσαν κενάς. (Τhucydides 2.93.4)
Translation: The ships they towed back empty.

Rather than, "They towed back the empty ships."

I judge the adjective κενάς to be in the predicative position.

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Re: exercise in Morwood, query

Post by mwh » Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:01 am

That’s it (or "They towed the ships away empty").

If it were τὰς κενὰς τριήρεις or τὰς τριήρεις (…) τὰς κενάς it would mean “the empty ships” (κενάς attributive).

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Re: exercise in Morwood, query

Post by cclaudian » Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:37 pm

mwh wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:04 am
Hylander wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:22 pm
τὰς ἡδονας θὴρευε τὰς μετὰ δὸξης.

I hope it didn't escape attention that this is a line of verse: the meter is dogmatic trimeter.
A joke? a “dogmatic trimeter” being one that μετὰ δόξης makes unmetrical?
Incidentally, in this case, it wouldn't take much to make it scan: τὰς ἡδονὰς θήρευε τὰς δόξης μέτα ?

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Re: exercise in Morwood, query

Post by mwh » Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:52 am

True, but the postponed preposition would be alien to the style of these sententiae.

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Re: exercise in Morwood, query

Post by jeidsath » Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:27 am

"τὰς ἐρωτικάς". And it becomes all too clear why the meter was marred by a prissy schoolmaster.
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