Plat., Protag.

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mwh
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Re: Prot., 327d attraction into opt

Post by mwh »

No that’s not it at all! That wouldn’t make sense. It’s a continuation of the relative clause, with a slight anacoluthon (since οἷς has been left behind). If it helps, you can understand οἲ before εἶεν; that would make it grammatical, but would be unidiomatic. The sense, as you'd have realized if you read for sense as well as grammar, is “who have no culture … (lit. to whom there is no culture …) but rather are savages.”

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Re: Prot., 327d attraction into opt

Post by Constantinus Philo »

ok ive got it thanx
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Re: Prot., 327d attraction into opt

Post by Constantinus Philo »

but i think he changes the mood for stylistic reasons aiming at variety, for he could have used the opt in both parts, or could have switched the moods saying ἐισί for εἶεν in the second part, or εἴη for ἐστι in the first part, however, i think that using the indicative in both parts throughout would have been wrong.
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Re: Prot 330a τὸ δὲ ἄλλο

Post by polemistes »

Look at LSJ for ἄλλος ΙΙ.3: ἄ. καὶ ἄ., one and then another...

ἕκαστον δέ ... τὸ δέ, makes a contrast, almost like τὸ μέν ... τὸ δέ ...

So it becomes something like "each of them is one thing, I said, and the other is something else?", which perhaps is more clearly written in English: "Is each of them, I said, something different from the other?"

I hope this helps.

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Re: Prot 330a τὸ δὲ ἄλλο

Post by Constantinus Philo »

still I am inclined to think that τὸ δε ἄλλο must be taken adverbially: with respect to the rest, in all other respects, this δε is copulative, not adverstative. So the best translation would be: so I said: and is each of them different also in all other respects?
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Prot 340ab

Post by Constantinus Philo »

καὶ γὰρ οὖν καὶ δεῖται τὸ ὑπὲρ Σιμωνίδου ἐπανόρθωμα τῆς σῆς μουσικῆς, ᾗ τό τε βούλεσθαι καὶ ἐπιθυμεῖν διαιρεῖς ὡς οὐ ταὐτὸν ὄν, καὶ ἃ νυνδὴ εἶπες πολλά τε καὶ καλά. It appears that καὶ ἃ means here διό. Or, it may be the case of an antecedent τούτων omitted. the correction of Simonides needs your music to distinguish between wishing and desiring, and (it needs) that which you have just said in many excellent ways. Or it may be just what it is, acc n pl, meaning that: for indeed, the correction of Simonides needs your musical skill by which you distinguish to wish and to desire, that which you have just said in many excellent ways. I think the last is the most probable.
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Re: Prot 330a τὸ δὲ ἄλλο

Post by polemistes »

Why do you think it must be copulative?

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Re: Prot 330a τὸ δὲ ἄλλο

Post by Constantinus Philo »

because the other does not make much sense here
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Prot 344b

Post by Constantinus Philo »

ἀλλὰ τὸν τύπον αὐτοῦ τὸν ὅλον διεξέλθωμεν καὶ τὴν βούλησιν, ὅτι παντὸς μᾶλλον ἔλεγχός ἐστιν τοῦ Πιττακείου ῥήματος διὰ παντὸς τοῦ ᾁσματος. On which does the ὅτι clause depend, on διεξέλθωμεν or βούλησιν?
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Funny Prot 345a

Post by Constantinus Philo »

Its funny that according to Plato you cannot be a bad doctor first and then develop into a good doctor, but you needs to be a good doctor from the start in order to inevitably become a bad doctor later. It resembles somehow Aristotle's entelechy: you needs to be a full grown man before you can be a child.
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Prot 345c

Post by Constantinus Philo »

τοὔνεκεν οὔ ποτ᾽ ἐγὼ τὸ μὴ γενέσθαι
δυνατὸν διζήμενος κενεὰν ἐς ἄ-
πρακτον ἐλπίδα μοῖραν αἰῶνος βαλέω,
πανάμωμον ἄνθρωπον, εὐρυεδοῦς ὅσοι
καρπὸν αἰνύμεθα χθονός:
ἐπί θ᾽ ὑμῖν εὑρὼν ἀπαγγελέω, It appears that this ὅσοι clause has a concessive meaning: as many as there might be....
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Prot 347c

Post by Constantinus Philo »

πολλοῦ μισθούμενοι ἀλλοτρίαν φωνὴν τὴν τῶν αὐλῶν, : hiring at a high price an extraneous voice, namely, that of the flutes.
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Re: Prot 330a τὸ δὲ ἄλλο

Post by Constantinus Philo »

οὐκ ὂν οἷον τὸ ἕτερον αὐτῶν τὸ ἕτερον; Prot 349b, the same construction?
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Prot 350d

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τοὺς δὲ ἀνδρείους ὡς οὐ θαρραλέοι εἰσίν, τὸ ἐμὸν ὁμολόγημα οὐδαμοῦ ἐπέδειξας ὡς οὐκ ὀρθῶς ὡμολόγησα. This is the sentence which all the commentators got wrong trying to explain the οὐ . In my opinion, it is simple if you take τὸ ἐμὸν ὁμολόγημα as acc of respect: you have never proved that I have admitted wrongly, that the courageous are not bold with respect to what I have agreed upon.
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Re: Prot 344b

Post by Constantinus Philo »

i think on βούλησιν
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Prot 351c

Post by Constantinus Philo »

ἐγὼ γὰρ λέγω, καθ᾽ ὃ ἡδέα ἐστίν, ἆρα κατὰ τοῦτο οὐκ ἀγαθά, μὴ εἴ τι ἀπ᾽ αὐτῶν ἀποβήσεται ἄλλο; How to explain the usage of this μὴ?
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Re: Prot 345c

Post by Constantinus Philo »

cf Prot 352d: καὶ ὅσους δὴ ἐγὼ ἠρόμην ὅτι ποτε αἴτιόν ἐστι τούτου, ὑπὸ ἡδονῆς φασιν, as many as I might have asked,
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Re: Prot 345c

Post by mwh »

ὅσους δὴ ἐγὼ ἠρόμην simply means “everyone I asked” (lit. “as many as I asked”). There's no concessive force.

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Re: Prot 345c

Post by Constantinus Philo »

that's the problem because first in all the Russian translations of osoi there is a shade of concessive meaning, second, the french autant qu'il y a ( the translation of osoi), might also have it and finally it is difficult to connect the πανάμωμον ἄνθρωπον, εὐρυεδοῦς ὅσοι
καρπὸν αἰνύμεθα χθονός: with the preceding clause if there is no any concessive meaning
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Re: Prot 345c

Post by mwh »

No, ὅσοι καρπὸν αἰνύμεθα χθονός has no concessive force either (and I suspect you don't actually mean concessive). It’s a perfectly ordinary use of ὅσοι with indicative, “all of us who” (not "as many as there might be"). There’s no expressed antecedent (e.g. en pasin), but remember this is high lyric poetry.

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Re: Prot 350d

Post by Hylander »

No. This is the "I know thee who thou art" idiom. "You have not shown my agreement that I erroneously agreed." " You have not shown that my agreement was in error."
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Re: Prot 345c

Post by Constantinus Philo »

ok now that's clear thank you
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Prot 352e 353a

Post by Constantinus Philo »

ὅ φασιν ὑπὸ τῶν ἡδονῶν ἡττᾶσθαι καὶ οὐ πράττειν διὰ ταῦτα τὰ βέλτιστα, ἐπεὶ γιγνώσκειν γε αὐτά. I think there is no need to suppose the subject τινα with those infinitives.
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Prot 353b

Post by Constantinus Philo »

ᾗ οἶμαι ἂν ἔγωγε κάλλιστα φανερὸν γενέσθαι, would it be possible to use a fut inf instead of γενέσθαι?
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Re: Prot 353b

Post by mwh »

Constantinus Philo wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:42 pm ᾗ οἶμαι ἂν ἔγωγε κάλλιστα φανερὸν γενέσθαι, would it be possible to use a fut inf instead of γενέσθαι?
If you mean Would it have been possible for Plato to have used the future?, I guess the answer is Yes. The significant thing is that he didn’t. γενήσεσθαι would put undue stress on the futurity, plus it's a bit of a mouthful.

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Re: Prot 352e 353a

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Constantinus Philo wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:44 pm ὅ φασιν ὑπὸ τῶν ἡδονῶν ἡττᾶσθαι καὶ οὐ πράττειν διὰ ταῦτα τὰ βέλτιστα, ἐπεὶ γιγνώσκειν γε αὐτά. I think there is no need to suppose the subject τινα with those infinitives.
This has to be read in the light of οἶσθα οὖν ὅτι οἱ πολλοὶ τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἐμοί τε καὶ σοὶ οὐ πείθονται, ἀλλὰ πολλούς φασι γιγνώσκοντας τὰ βέλτιστα οὐκ ἐθέλειν πράττειν, ἐξὸν αὐτοῖς, ἀλλὰ ἄλλα πράττειν (352d), which it’s recapitulating. Without that it would read rather oddly.

Euripides’ Phaedra had expressed the same thought in the Hippolytus (380ff.):
τὰ χρήστ᾽ ἐπιστάμεσθα καὶ γιγνώσκομεν,

οὐκ ἐκπονοῦμεν δ᾽, οἱ μὲν ἀργίας ὕπο,

οἱ δ᾽ ἡδονὴν προθέντες ἀντὶ τοῦ καλοῦ

ἄλλην τιν᾽. εἰσὶ δ᾽ ἡδοναὶ πολλαὶ βίου,

μακραί τε λέσχαι καὶ σχολή, τερπνὸν κακόν, ...

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Re: Plat., Protag. 354b

Post by Constantinus Philo »

ταῦτα δὲ ἀγαθά ἐστι δι᾽.... in an old addition, δὲ is changed into δὴ, on the ground that ταῦτα must refer to the preceding γυμνάσια etc, Why? i do not get the reason.
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Re: Plat., Protag. 354b

Post by mwh »

Constantinus Philo wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:21 pm ταῦτα δὲ ἀγαθά ἐστι δι᾽.... in an old addition, δὲ is changed into δὴ, on the ground that ταῦτα must refer to the preceding γυμνάσια etc, Why? i do not get the reason.
I doubt that’s why the change was proposed. δὴ is very attractive, but since it’s not transmitted, and not strictly "necessary," it's understandable if editors hesitate to accept it.

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Re: Plat., Protag.

Post by cb »

Hi, I’m coming into this discussion late, but I see a post above on 350d that hasn’t been addressed:

‘τοὺς δὲ ἀνδρείους ὡς οὐ θαρραλέοι εἰσίν, τὸ ἐμὸν ὁμολόγημα οὐδαμοῦ ἐπέδειξας ὡς οὐκ ὀρθῶς ὡμολόγησα. This is the sentence which all the commentators got wrong trying to explain the οὐ . In my opinion, it is simple if you take τὸ ἐμὸν ὁμολόγημα as acc of respect: you have never proved that I have admitted wrongly, that the courageous are not bold with respect to what I have agreed upon.’

I disagree with this reading, because it does not fit with the surrounding argument: this construction might suggest that Protagoras denies that all courageous people are bold; Protagoras makes clear several times, however, that all courageous people are bold: (using numbering from Denyer’s latest text) 349e1–3, 350c6–7 (I leave out the disputed passage at 350b7–9: if it were included, it would further support this reading). If you are suggesting something else however (such as that the courageous are bold, on the basis of some other agreed ground), can you please explain what you have in mind?

I agree with the commentators, such as Adam and Adam (1893 p. 175), Denyer (2008 p. 176) etc., on the treatment of the negative here, which makes the statement fit with the surrounding argument.

Also I don’t take τὸ ἐμὸν ὁμολόγημα as an acc. of respect, but as a fronted cognate acc. with ὡμολόγησα, similar to Crito 52a6–8: ἴσως ἄν μου δικαίως καθάπτοιντο λέγοντες ὅτι ἐν τοῖς μάλιστα Ἀθηναίων ἐγὼ αὐτοῖς ὡμολογηκὼς τυγχάνω ταύτην τὴν ὁμολογίαν. No matter how the accusative is construed however, I don’t think it has any bearing on the reading of the negative.

It’s good to question commentators—they do sometimes make mistakes—not here though, I think.

Cheers, Chad

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