“πάνυ μὲν οὖν”

Here you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Greek, and more.
Post Reply
Tugodum
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

“πάνυ μὲν οὖν”

Post by Tugodum »

In Plato's R 330 d1, it seems to be an expression of a complete agreement with the interlocutor, whereas at 331 d 4--of a complete disagreement. If my understanding of its respective functions in those passages is correct, can anyone suggest an explanation for this locution's capacity to signify such diametric opposites?

User avatar
seneca2008
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2006
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: Londinium

Re: “πάνυ μὲν οὖν”

Post by seneca2008 »

The Loeb has the following:
330 d Πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἦν δ’ ἐγώ. ἀλλά μοι ἔτι τοσόνδε εἰπέ· τί μέγιστον οἴει ἀγαθὸν ἀπολελαυκέναι τοῦ πολλὴν οὐσίαν κεκτῆσθαι;
“I certainly am,” I said. “But tell me this too; what do you believe is the greatest benefit you have enjoyed from the acquisition of all your wealth?”
331 d Πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὑπολαβὼν ὁ Πολέμαρχος, εἴπερ γέ τι χρὴ Σιμωνίδῃ πείθεσθαι.
Oh but it is, Socrates,” said Polemarchus taking up the argument, “at any rate if we’re to believe Simonides.
Its perhaps better to read Denniston p 470 but Smyth is helpful in a more condensed form:
2901. μὲν οὖν lit. certainly in fact, μέν being a weaker form of μήν. μὲν οὖν has two common uses, according as the particles have a compound force, or each has its own force.
a. The compound force of μὲν οὖν is seen in affirmations; as in replies: πάνυ (μάλιστα) μὲν οὖν yes, by all means; certainly, by all means; aye truly, εὖ μὲν οὖν οἶδα nay, I am sure of it, οὐ μὲν οὖν indeed not, ““ἆρ᾽ ου᾽ τόδε ἦν τὸ δένδρον ἐφ᾽ ὅπερ ἦγες ἡμᾶς; τοῦτο μὲν οὖν αὐτό” isn't this the tree to which you were bringing us? To be sure this is it” P. Phae. 230a.

b. The compound force appears also when μὲν οὖν indicates a correction; nay rather (imo vero); as λέγε σύ: σὺ μὲν οὖν μοι λέγε do you say. Nay, rather you Ar. Eq. 13, ἄτοπον τὸ ἐνύπνιον, ὦ Σώκρατες. ἐναργὲς μὲν οὖν the dream is strange, Socrates. Nay rather, it was distinct P. Cr. 44b.

c. Each particle has its own force especially where μὲν οὖν indicates a transition to a new subject. Here μέν points forward to an antithesis to follow and indicated by δέ, ἀλλά, μέντοι, while οὖν (inferential) connects with what precedes. Here so then, therefore may be used in translation. Thus, ““Κλέαρχος μὲν οὖν τοσαῦτα εἶπε. Τισσαφέρνης δὲ ὧδε ἀπημείφθη” such then were the words of Clearthus; and on the other hand Tissaphernes answered as follows” X. A. 2.5.15 Sometimes μὲν οὖν (like igitur) shows that a subject announced in general terms is now to be treated in detail (P. Ph. 70c).
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

Hylander
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2504
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: “πάνυ μὲν οὖν”

Post by Hylander »

It translates to French in context both as mais oui and as mais si.
Bill Walderman

Tugodum
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: “πάνυ μὲν οὖν”

Post by Tugodum »

My French is not good enough for me to see how "mais si" can possibly fit any of the two contexts under question.

User avatar
jeidsath
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: “πάνυ μὲν οὖν”

Post by jeidsath »

In 330d he's answering ἀληθῆ, ἔφη, λέγεις. In 331d he's answering οὐκ ἄρα. Isn't that enough explanation?
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

Tugodum
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: “πάνυ μὲν οὖν”

Post by Tugodum »

But what is it that might possibly prevent one from (mis-)taking πάνυ μὲν οὖν at 331d for an expression of an agreement with οὐκ ἄρα? One does not know at that point what dictum by Simonides Polemarchus has in mind.

Callisper
Textkit Member
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:21 pm

Re: “πάνυ μὲν οὖν”

Post by Callisper »

jeidsath is close.

The truth is that “πάνυ μὲν οὖν” affirms not the speaker but the sentiment.

In English, it is normal to answer "..., (this is the case,) surely?" with "yes." It is not possible to unambiguously answer "...: this is not the case, is it?" with "yes." Platonic Greek avoids this conundrum much of the time by dividing affirmative response formulae into those which address specifically the speaker - which could not be used in the second of your two contexts - and those which address the sentiment.

“πάνυ μὲν οὖν” therefore in both cases constitutes affirmation. "xxx: this is the case, right?" "Yes, it is" ("yes it is the case": the sentiment you expressed, 'xxx', is true); "xxx: and this is not the case, is it?" "Oh but it is" ("yes it is the case": the sentiment you expressed is true).

Another example comes to mind of perhaps some relevance:

ὅμως δὲ δὴ λέγε ἡμῖν, πῶς με φῂς διαφθείρειν, ὦ Μέλητε, τοὺς νεωτέρους; ἢ δῆλον δὴ ὅτι κατὰ τὴν γραφήν, ἣν ἐγράψω, θεοὺς διδάσκοντα μὴ νομίζειν οὓς ἡ πόλις νομίζει, ἕτερα δὲ δαιμόνια καινά; οὐ ταῦτα λέγεις, ὅτι διδάσκων διαφθείρω;
"Πάνυ μὲν οὖν σφόδρα ταῦτα λέγω."
(Apology)
i.e. "Don't you say this?" "I do say it."

All this regarding just the function of “πάνυ μὲν οὖν” overall and which question types it may respond to. I have not treated the precise force or broken down the phrase to analyse its exact sense as it wasn't necessary here.

Tugodum
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: “πάνυ μὲν οὖν”

Post by Tugodum »

But what, then, is exactly the "sentiment" that "οὐκ ἄρα..." expresses and “πάνυ μὲν οὖν” at 331d affirms?

Callisper
Textkit Member
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:21 pm

Re: “πάνυ μὲν οὖν”

Post by Callisper »

Tugodum wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:16 am But what, then, is exactly the "sentiment" that "οὐκ ἄρα..." expresses and “πάνυ μὲν οὖν” at 331d affirms?
That "οὗτος ὅρος ἐστὶν δικαιοσύνης, ἀληθῆ τε λέγειν καὶ ἃ ἂν λάβῃ τις ἀποδιδόναι." See Loeb for translation. It fits very neatly into the category I outlined above.

Tugodum
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: “πάνυ μὲν οὖν”

Post by Tugodum »

What you cited is just a part of the statement to which “πάνυ μὲν οὖν” is the response; I'm not sure why you consider this part, not the whole statement (including "οὐκ ἄρα"), the expression of a "sentiment."

Tugodum
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: “πάνυ μὲν οὖν”

Post by Tugodum »

I've looked up Schleiermacher's translation; if my understanding of his German is correct, he takes it as an expression of agreement:
– Also ist das auch nicht die rechte Erklärung der Gerechtigkeit, Wahrheit reden und was man empfangen hat wiedergeben.
Allerdings doch o Sokrates, sagte Polemarchos die Rede aufnehmend, wenn man doch dem Simonides etwas glauben darf.

https://gutenberg.spiegel.de/buch/plato ... aat-7314/3

Tugodum
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: “πάνυ μὲν οὖν”

Post by Tugodum »

p.s. Am not sure, though, whether or not the "doch" makes it negative... A bit further, at 332 b4, where “πάνυ μὲν οὖν” undoubtedly indicates agreement, he renders it as just "Allerdings."

Post Reply