Elementary question

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Constantinus Philo
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Elementary question

Post by Constantinus Philo » Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:58 am

I'm afraid it's too elementary but still I don't understand why εστασι and τεθνασι 3 pl perf are properispomenons why the accent is not recessive I cannot find an answer in Smyth
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Hylander
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Re: Elementary question

Post by Hylander » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:39 pm

ἑστᾶσι is a contracted form, from -αασι. The first α is part of the stem. The second α, which is long, represents the development of a syllabic resonant ντι> vσι > ασι. See Smyth 463d:
d. 3 Pl.—Original -ντι is retained in Doric λύ_οντι, whence Attic λύ_ουσι (115 a); ἐντί, Attic εἰσί. Subj. λύ_ωσι from λύ_ω-ντι, τιθῶσι from τιθέω-ντι, ποιῶσι from ποιῶντι (Dor.). Many μι forms are derived from -αντι, as τιθέα_σι (τιθέ-αντι), διδόα_σι (διδό-αντι), ἑστᾶσι (ἑστά-αντι), ἱστᾶσι (from ἱστά-αντι), the accent of which has been transferred to τιθεῖσι (747 D. 1), διδοῦσι from (Dor.) τίθε-ντι, δίδο-ντι. -α^τι from -ṇτι (35 b), properly the ending of the perfect after a consonant, appears as -α^σι in Hom. πεφύκα^σι; but it has been replaced by -α_σι out of -αντι, as in τετράφ-α_σι.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 3%20a.%20D

I'm not sure where you get τεθνασι.

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jeidsath
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Re: Elementary question

Post by jeidsath » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:54 pm

The LSJ for θνῄσκω has: "3pl. τεθνᾶσι Il.22.52". Smyth gives the same at 704c. Given the participle, maybe there's a vowel in there? -θνε-?
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Callisper
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Re: Elementary question

Post by Callisper » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:14 pm

Smyth 704 seems to cover it. (It mentions τεθνᾶσι specifically in 704c.) Not sure if he explains anywhere why the accentuation is like this - it's simply because of -άᾱ- contraction (not that the second alpha doesn't have to be long to produce a circumflex on the resulting vowel). τεθνά-ᾱσι > τεθνᾶσι

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Re: Elementary question

Post by Hylander » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:30 pm

It looks like θνῄσκω has an alternative athematic 2d perfect dual and plural in τεθνα-, so the 3rd plur. form would be analogous to ἑστᾶσι. Smyth 704c, as noted; and these forms are cited in LSJ:
short forms of pf., 3dual “τέθνα^τον” X.An.4.1.19, 1pl. “τέθνα^μεν” Pl.Grg.493a, 3pl. “τεθνᾶσι” Il.22.52, etc.; 3pl. plpf. “ἐτέθνα^σαν” Antipho 5.70, And.1.59, X.HG6.4.16; imper. “τέθνα^θι” Il.22.365, “τεθνάτω” 15.496, IG12.10, Pl. Lg.933e, etc.; opt. “τεθναίην” Il.18.98, etc.; inf. τεθνάναι [α^] Semon. 3, Hdt.1.31, Ar.Ra.1012, Pl.Com.68, Th.8.92, etc., τεθνᾶναι dub.l. in Mimn.2.10, A.Ag.539;
Again, the first α in the uncontracted form would be part of the stem and the second would be the development of syllabic ν.

I'm sure I've encountered these forms in reading without noticing the irregularity (which is really not an irregularity since the perfect conjugation follows the pattern of the perfect of ἵστημι: a regular first perfect in -κα in the singular and in the dual and plural an athematic second perfect with a stem ending in short α, to which the personal endings are attached).

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