Two More Unit 10 Questions

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Lukas
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Two More Unit 10 Questions

Post by Lukas » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:41 pm

For number 7, I was supposed to write, "On account of the war against the foreigners the citizens must suffer."
I was not sure whether to put "citizens" in the nominative or accusative case. The answer book placed it in the accusative. It's word order was different also, but I am mostly concerned with figuring out if what case "citizens" would be in.

For number 8, I was supposed to write, "It does not befit a virtuous man to be unjust." Again, I was on the fence post regarding the case of "unjust." The answer book placed it in the dative, perhaps because it is a predicate adjective?
I was wondering whether to place it in the dative or place it in the accusative as an object of "to be?"

Here are the answers:

Image
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Re: Two More Unit 10 Questions

Post by jeidsath » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:06 pm

τοὺς πολίτας ἀνάγκη (or δεῖ or χρὴ) πάσχειν διὰ τὸν πρὸ πόλεμον

In the Greek, ἀνάγκη is the subject of the sentence. More literally "there is a need for <X>." And X follows the standard accusative + infinitive rule in Greek.

τῷ ἀγαθῷ οὐ πρέπει ἀδίκῳ εἶναι

So πρέπει is impersonal. "It is fitting." There is a much less common "πρέπει <X>" where X is a phrase with accusative + infinitive. However the standard formula is "πρέπει for X to Y" where X is a dative person and Y is an infinitive.
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Constantinus Philo
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Re: Two More Unit 10 Questions

Post by Constantinus Philo » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:17 pm

I think δια τα προ πόλεμον is better.
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Re: Two More Unit 10 Questions

Post by Constantinus Philo » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:17 pm

I think δια τα προ πόλεμον is better.
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Re: Two More Unit 10 Questions

Post by jeidsath » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:21 pm

Actually, it's looks like there is something cut out of the image there. πρὸς βαρβάρους?
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Re: Two More Unit 10 Questions

Post by Constantinus Philo » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:25 pm

A genetive must follow pro not acc, so there is a mistake it must be προς here
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Re: Two More Unit 10 Questions

Post by Hylander » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:10 pm

#8 -- ἀδίκῳ is dative in agreement with τῷ ἀγαθῷ.

This may seem somewhat strange -- you might expect the subject of the infinitive to be accusative -- but it's consistent with Greek usage. Maybe Smyth's grammar is a little too advanced at this stage, but here is the relevant section;
1062. A predicate substantive, adjective, or participle referring to a dative stands in the dative or in the accusative in agreement with the unexpressed subject of the infinitive: ““νῦν σοι ἔξεστιν ἀνδρὶ γενέσθαι” now it is in your power to prove yourself a man” X. A. 7.1.21, ““Λακεδαιμονίοις ἔξεστιν ὑμῖν φίλους γενέσθαι” it is in your power to become friends to the Lacedaemonians” T. 4.29, ““ἔδοξεν αὐτοῖς . . . ἐξοπλισαμένοις προϊέναι” they decided to arm themselves fully and to advance” X. A. 2.1.2, ἔδοξεν αὐτοῖς προφυλακὰς καταστήσαντας συγκαλεῖν τοὺς στρατιώτας they decided to station pickets and to assemble the soldiers 3. 2. 1, ““συμφέρει αὐτοῖς φίλους εἶναι μᾶλλον ἢ πολεμίους” it is for their interest to be friends rather than enemies” X. O. 11.23.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.04.0007

#7 -- ἀνάγκη (εστι): εστι is understood and not expressed, and ἀνάγκη alone functions as if it were a verb. Here τοὺς πολίτας is the accusative subject of the infinitive πάσχειν.
Last edited by Hylander on Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Two More Unit 10 Questions

Post by Lukas » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:21 pm

ευχαριστώ!

Just out of curiosity, posters have been referring to Herbert Weir Smyth's work now and then. Is that for second or third year students?
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Re: Two More Unit 10 Questions

Post by jeidsath » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:31 pm

Smyth (and the LSJ) became exponentially more useful to me as I was able to read the examples more easily. Starting out, I think that I wish that I had found a copy of Morwood's Oxford Grammar earlier.
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Re: Two More Unit 10 Questions

Post by RandyGibbons » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:34 pm

Hi Lucas. As Joel (jeidsath) says, impersonal verbs* like ἀνάγχη and δεῖ and χρή (with ἐστι usually left unexpressed but understood) and ἔξεστι and πρέπει and others govern a construction usually dubbed 'accusative plus infinitive'.
  • Think about the English. In English, the phrase 'It is necessary that' governs a main clause, 'the citizens suffer'. In Greek, the subject of the governed main clause - 'citizens' - is expressed in the accusative, and the verb of the clause is expressed in the infinitive.
  • Think about the English. In English, the phrase 'It does not befit that' governs a main clause, 'a man is unjust'. In Greek the verb of the governed main clause is in the infinitive, and in this case the subject is put in the dative rather than the accusative by attraction to τῷ ἀγαθῷ, though it could also have been ἄδικον εἶναι (perhaps stylistically less preferable but perfectly grammatical).
* In the "mother" of English-language ancient Greek grammars, Smyth, these are called "quasi-impersonal" verbs, but don't worry about that. Go with whatever terminology Mastonarde is using.

Unless you've had Latin, the (very very common) accusative plus infinitive construction will seem weird to you and will take some getting used to. Mastronarde must have covered it by this point, or he wouldn't expect you to be able to do these exercises, so study his explanation and examples for this construction very carefully, and ask away.

EDIT: I'll leave this post, but I didn't see Hylander's or Joel's. Go with theirs!

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Re: Two More Unit 10 Questions

Post by mwh » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:40 pm

With all due respect to Randy, I’d say ignore what he says about the grammar. And I’d say Do not think about the English, think about the Greek, and get comfortable with the acc.&inf. construction of ##2 and 7, where the accusative is the subject of the infinitive. (Forget about “the governed main clause,” which is no such thing.) In #2 you’ll observe that the infinitive has not only its subject (tous anthrwpous) but also its object (ta dikaia) in the accusative. That’s quite common too.

In #8 you had it right: adikw is a predicative adjective, and as such is in agreement with tw agathw. And remember that the verb “to be” cannot have an object, only a predicate. tw agathw (and adikw in turn) is dative because the verb prepei generally takes a dative.

As to Smyth. It’s for students of ancient Greek at any level, and has long been the standard reference grammar in the English-speaking world, especially in the US. But it's very old and not at all user-friendly. There are more accessible grammars for beginners. Morwood’s relatively recent Oxford Grammar of Classical Greek is a grammar for the 21st century. It’s affordable, and I recommend buying it. (But note the qualification of “classical” Greek; and it's less thoroughgoing than Smyth.) I confess I don’t have it myself, but I too am old, and no longer make much use of reference grammars.
—And now there’s the rival Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek too, more linguistically oriented and very Dutch, but comprehensive and up-to-date.

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Re: Two More Unit 10 Questions

Post by Constantinus Philo » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:04 am

I would like to ask you for I'm just curious, if you have read Kuhner, how would you compare it to Smyth. They say Kuhner s is grammatica completissima. I wish someone would translate it one day into English.
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Re: Two More Unit 10 Questions

Post by mwh » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:28 am

There was actually a thread about that.. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61883. (If Qimmik sounds awfully much like Hylander, there's a reason for that.)

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Re: Two More Unit 10 Questions

Post by Bart » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:34 am

Personally I like Bornemann's Griechische Grammatik; but it's in German of course.

mwh wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:40 pm
—And now there’s the rival Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek too, more linguistically oriented and very Dutch, but comprehensive and up-to-date.

What do you mean by 'very Dutch'? Just curious.

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Re: Two More Unit 10 Questions

Post by RandyGibbons » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:18 am

Hi Lukas. Also go with whatever mwh says; he is a college professor of Greek and articulates matters of grammar much better than I!

I'd just repeat that I think the takeaway here is you need to get comfortable with the accusative + infinitive construction. In my opinion, you should have everything you need in the Mastronarde textbook.

It's true that most learners of Greek eventually want to have a comprehensive grammar book in hand. It's good to have some familiarity with Smyth, since it's often referred to, as you've discovered. Since Smyth is available online, if you're so inclined and willing to spend some dough, go with one of the dictionaries mwh recommends. But again, plenty of autodidacts have successfully done Greek 101/102 (so to speak) just using their chosen textbook and with the help of their friends (us).

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Re: Two More Unit 10 Questions

Post by jeidsath » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:37 pm

And again for comparison, here is the Cambridge grammar on this:

https://imgur.com/a/wPcfLzU
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