Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

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Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:39 am

ἔστι δὲ ὁ χῶρος οὗτος, ἐν τῷ αἱ ἄκανθαι κατακεχύαται, τοιόσδε τις, ἐσβολὴ ἐξ ὀρέων στεινῶν ἐς πεδίον μέγα, τὸ δὲ πεδίον τοῦτο συνάπτει τῷ Αἰγυπτίῳ πεδίῳ.
I have two questions about this section:
1. From the syntax, κατακεχύαται is plural, but there is usually an addition of a nu in the morphology of the plural before a -ται. What has happened in this form?

[My guess is that is a direct flexion form with the nu becoming a voiceless sonorant /n̥/ either recorded in the alphabet as alpha or actually becoming the same sound as alpha.]

Does this ending only occur in this word or are there other examples?

2. What is the function of τοιόσδε τις? LSL says the addition of τις makes τοιόσδε more indefinite. Is τοιόσδε forward looking, while οὗτος is backward looking?
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

Post by jeidsath » Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:06 am

Adding the note to Smyth 466 here, since the digital Smyth on Perseus doesn't seem to have it.
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It does have it -- 465, not 466.
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Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

Post by Hylander » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:46 am

κατακεχύαται -- this is the normal 3rd pers. perf. medio-passive form in Herodotus, reflecting the normal reflex of syllabic */n̥/ in attested Greek. Attic uses a periphrastic form, κεχυμενοι, -αι -α εισι. so the Ionic/Herodotean form may look strange.

τοιόσδε τις -- "somewhat like this:" I think.

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Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

Post by jeidsath » Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:48 pm

Hylander wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:46 am
Attic uses a periphrastic form, κεχυμενοι, -αι -α εισι. so the Ionic/Herodotean form may look strange.
I'm not entirely sure that you're saying this, but κατακεχύαται is a finite form, not a participle, and in Attic would be κατακεχύνται, I think.

EDIT: I misunderstood what you were saying, but Smyth doesn't show this as a periphrastic form. I see a number of volcaic perfects with it in Xenophon when I search, though he may use the periphrastic version in parallel too — that’s harder to search for.
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Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

Post by Hylander » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:25 pm

in Attic would be κατακεχύνται, I think.
Yes, you're right for stems ending in a vowel. I stand corrected. But for stems ending in a consonant the periphrastic form of the third plural perf. medio-passive is used: participle + εισι.

The perf./plup. forms in -νται, ντο are the result of analogical leveling, substituting for the forms in -αται, -ατο, which represent the usual historical Greek development of prehistoric forms with syllabic */n̥/. According to Smyth 465f, the forms in -αται, -ατο were preserved until about 400 BCE, although I wonder whether Attic literary texts preserving these forms were affected by Hellenistic revisions substituting archaisms for the more recent forms.

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Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

Post by mwh » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:13 pm

εκηβολε, If you read Homer or Herodotus (and other Ionic) you’ll find plenty of 3 pl. –αται endings. I strongly recommend reading both authors, and giving priority to that.

As to your second question, τοιοσδε is to τοιουτος as οδε is to ουτος, or ταδε to ταυτα. Apart from the deictic –δε ending, you can tell that τοιοσδε (with or without τις) is “forward-looking” from its position, along with—most importantly—the asyndeton that follows, εσβολη εξ ορεων κτλ. Always pay attention to asyndeton.

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Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

Post by jeidsath » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:11 pm

Hylander wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:25 pm
According to Smyth 465f, the forms in -αται, -ατο were preserved until about 400 BCE, although I wonder whether Attic literary texts preserving these forms were affected by Hellenistic revisions substituting archaisms for the more recent forms.
So looking up τετάχαται, ἐτετάχατο, that Smyth references, gives Thuc.3.13.4, 5.7.1, 7.4.7. And that's it for classical references to these two forms (excluding Herodotus). ἀντιτετάχαται shows up in X.An.4.8.5, and διετετάχατο in Thuc.4.31.2. Looking at the LSJ, I see that it mentions this form in its entry, which makes me think that the LSJ entry may be Smyth's source. Searching the LSJ for similar 3pl form mentions (outside of Homer and Ionic Greek), only gives ἐφθάραται (Th.3.13.3) and a couple of Stobaeus references.

Until I see further evidence, I'm going to assume that Smyth has made an over-broad generalization about a phenomenon which in fact only applies to a couple of words, and only in Thucydides and Xenophon.
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Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

Post by mwh » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:52 pm

Might be worth checking Kühner-Gerth. Smyth is heavily dependent on that but gives less detailed data.

Curious that Thuc.3.13.3 has not only τεταχαται (which is standard in Thuc.?) but also εφθαραται (like Hdt.), where we might have expected εφθαρμενοι εισιν. (This is in a Mytilenian speech, but I don’t suppose that makes any difference.) I really can’t imagine that these older forms displaced the more modern ones in the tradition.

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Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

Post by Aetos » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:22 pm

Here's what I believe is the appropriate section in Kühner:
https://imgur.com/a/3STNPEA
This is from the 1869 edition. Paragraph 214 isn't available on Perseus, as far as I can tell.
He discusses the use of -αται, -ατο in the Attic dialect starting with note 8. Prior notes in this section deal with Old & New Ionic, Homeric, and Doric dialects.

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Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

Post by Hylander » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:38 pm

Until I see further evidence, I'm going to assume that Smyth has made an over-broad generalization about a phenomenon which in fact only applies to a couple of words, and only in Thucydides and Xenophon.
I wouldn't make that assumption. There may be epigraphic evidence. You could consult the morphology volume of Threatte on this. It's a steal at just $671.00 for an e-book download.

https://www.degruyter.com/view/product/45709

The phonology volume is even more reasonably priced, at just $531.

There are cites to Plato and Aristophanes in the page from Kühner-Gerth that Aetos helpfully linked to. Plato is definitely 4th c. Attic; as for Aristophanes, you would probably have to look at the source to see what he's up to before assuming that his usage is standard 5th century Attic.

But I wonder whether forms in -αται, -ατο in Thucydides might be Ionicisms, like -σσ- where Attic has -ττ-. Until Thucydides, prose history was an Ionic genre. Herodotus chose to write in Ionic for that reason, even though his native speech was probably Doric and he was writing largely for an Athenian audience.

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Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

Post by jeidsath » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:30 pm

Gardiner describes a letter of Bach's where he tells his wife that he purchased the complete works of Luther for a price much less than what he actually paid, according to the ledger of the sale, which survives. Happily for family finances, that is avoidable here.
Threatte vol 2 p453 on αται/ατο
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Here are the inscription references that he mentions.

IG I³ 34
IG I³ 61
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Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

Post by Hylander » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:18 pm

Seems more or less consistent with Smyth.

Can anyone find the relevant discussion in Schwyzer?

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Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

Post by Paul Derouda » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:59 am

Hylander wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:38 pm
But I wonder whether forms in -αται, -ατο in Thucydides might be Ionicisms, like -σσ- where Attic has -ττ-. Until Thucydides, prose history was an Ionic genre. Herodotus chose to write in Ionic for that reason, even though his native speech was probably Doric and he was writing largely for an Athenian audience.
I've seen the question of Herodotus' native dialect discussed now and then in diverse commentaries. Halicarnassus was a Dorian settlement, with Carian the "original" local language. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that also Ionic inscriptions have been found there. Is there evidence for Herodotus having been a native speaker of Doric, except that he came from Halicarnassus?

Re: Bach & Gardiner. At this time of the year I am in the habit of tormenting my family with Gardiner's Cantata recording vol 14 (beside vol 15 and the obvious Christmas Oratory, of course). I especially love the soprano and alto duet in BWV 91 (number 5 on the disc). Unfortunately I couldn't find it on Youtube, but here is Herreweghe's version of BWV 91- at first listening, I didn't like it quite as much as Gardiner, but I'll give it another try! (I love Herreweghe's Mass in B minor though) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJa716LSba4

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Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

Post by Paul Derouda » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:48 pm

One more thing about whether Herodotus' native speech was Doric or Ionian. Herodotus seem especially interested about Ionians and their dialects, and he clearly knows a great deal about them. I haven't decided whether this means that he was a native Ionian, but I think it's worth noting. Here's 1.142, where he discusses different Ionian dialects:
οἱ δὲ Ἴωνες οὗτοι, τῶν καὶ τὸ Πανιώνιόν ἐστι, τοῦ μὲν οὐρανοῦ καὶ τῶν ὡρέων ἐν τῷ καλλίστῳ ἐτύγχανον ἱδρυσάμενοι πόλιας πάντων ἀνθρώπων τῶν ἡμεῖς ἴδμεν· οὔτε γὰρ τὰ ἄνω αὐτῆς χωρία τὠυτὸ ποιέει τῇ Ἰωνίῃ οὔτε τὰ κάτω οὔτε τὰ πρὸς τὴν ἠῶ οὔτε τὰ πρὸς τὴν ἑσπέρην, τὰ μὲν ὑπὸ τοῦ ψυχροῦ τε καὶ ὑγροῦ πιεζόμενα, τὰ δὲ ὑπὸ τοῦ θερμοῦ τε καὶ αὐχμώδεος. γλῶσσαν δὲ οὐ τὴν αὐτὴν οὗτοι νενομίκασι, ἀλλὰ τρόπους τέσσερας παραγωγέων. Μίλητος μὲν αὐτέων πρώτη κέεται πόλις πρὸς μεσαμβρίην, μετὰ δὲ Μυοῦς τε καὶ Πριήνη. αὗται μὲν ἐν τῇ Καρίῃ κατοίκηνται κατὰ ταὐτὰ διαλεγόμεναι σφίσι, αἵδε δὲ ἐν τῇ Λυδίῃ, Ἔφεσος Κολοφὼν Λέβεδος Τέως Κλαζομεναὶ Φώκαια· αὗται δὲ αἱ πόλιες τῇσι πρότερον λεχθείσῃσι ὁμολογέουσι κατὰ γλῶσσαν οὐδέν, σφισι δὲ ὁμοφωνέουσι. ἔτι δὲ τρεῖς ὑπόλοιποι Ἰάδες πόλιες, τῶν αἱ δύο μὲν νήσους οἰκέαται, Σάμον τε καὶ Χίον, ἡ δὲ μία ἐν τῇ ἠπείρῳ ἵδρυται, Ἐρυθραί. Χῖοι μέν νυν καὶ Ἐρυθραῖοι κατὰ τὠυτὸ διαλέγονται, Σάμιοι δὲ ἐπ’ ἑωυτῶν μοῦνοι. οὗτοι χαρακτῆρες γλώσσης τέσσερες γίνονται.
Now these Ionians possessed the Panionion, and of all men whom we know, they happened to found their cities in places with the loveliest of climate and seasons. For neither to the north of them nor to the south does the land effect the same thing as in Ionia [nor to the east nor to the west], affected here by the cold and wet, there by the heat and drought. They do not all have the same speech but four different dialects. Miletus lies farthest south among them, and next to it come Myus and Priene; these are settlements in Caria, and they have a common language; Ephesus, Colophon, Lebedos, Teos, Clazomenae, Phocaea, all of them in Lydia, have a language in common which is wholly different from the speech of the three former cities. There are yet three Ionian cities, two of them situated on the islands of Samos and Chios, and one, Erythrae, on the mainland; the Chians and Erythraeans speak alike, but the Samians have a language which is their own and no one else's. It is thus seen that there are four modes of speech.

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Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:31 pm

Hylander wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:46 am
κατακεχύαται -- ..., reflecting the normal reflex of syllabic */n̥/ in attested Greek.
Is something similar happening in γεγαώς? Is the zero-grade of γεν γn̥?
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

Post by Hylander » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:05 pm

Is something similar happening in γεγαώς?
Yes.

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