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EberP
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Post by EberP » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:55 pm

χαίρετε,

I'm reading the final parts of Rouses' Greek Boy (Dio's Euboikos) but I have encountered some strange sentences in which there are dialogues where the quotes are introduced at first by ὁ δέ (masculine article) until the gender suddenly changes to ὃ δέ (neuter relative pronoun). Could this be some sort of mistake in the accent? Please have a look.

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bedwere
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Re: ὅ

Post by bedwere » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:12 pm

I think it's a mistake.

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jeidsath
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Re: ὅ

Post by jeidsath » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:32 pm

It was the style at some time or other. Gildersleeve does it too.
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Hylander
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Re: ὅ

Post by Hylander » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:45 pm

I don't think it's a mistake. ὃ δέ is a masculine demonstrative, not a neuter relative pronoun. The article ὁ was originally a demonstrative pronoun, as it is in Homeric Greek, where the definite article has not yet developed. In the expression ὁ δέ (without preceding μεν), which is sometimes written ὃ δέ, it retains its force as a demonstrative equivalent to a 3rd person pronoun in Attic prose. This frequently occurs where a change of speakers is indicated.

See Smyth 1112, 1114:
1112. ὁ δέ, ἡ δέ, τὸ δέ (without a preceding μέν clause) often mean but (or and) he, she, this. In the nominative the person referred to is usually different from the subject of the main verb: Κῦρος δίδωσιν αὐτῷ μυ_ρίους δα_ρεικούς: ὁ δὲ λαβὼν τὸ χρυ_σίον κ.τ.λ. Cyrus gives him (Clearchus) 10,000 darics; and he taking the money, etc. X. A. 1.1.9, ταῦτα ἀπαγγέλλουσι τοῖς στρατιώταις: τοῖς δὲ ὑποψία_ ἦν ὅτι ἄγοι πρὸς βασιλέα_ they report this to the soldiers; and they had a suspicion that he was leading (them) against the king X. A. 1.3.21, ““τὸ δ᾽ οὐκ ἔστι τοιοῦτον” whereas this is not so” P. A. 37a.
1114. In the nominative ὅς, ἥ, are usually thus written. Some write ὅ, ἥ, οἵ, αἵ when these words are used as demonstratives; but ὃ μέν . . . ὃ δέ is rare.

a. The forms ὅς, ἥ, here apparently relatives with an older demonstrative force, may be in reality demonstratives, ὅς being the demonstrative (article) ὁ to which the nominative sign -ς has been added. From this ὅς may be derived, by analogy, the demonstrative use of ὅ, and of οἶς, οὕς in fixed expressions (1110).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.04.0007

EberP
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Re: ὅ

Post by EberP » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:10 pm

εὐχαριστῶ ὑμῖν, ὦ ἄνδρες!

Your answers are very helpful. I remebered about the article being used as a demostrative, but I'd never seen an accent on the nominative non-neuter article before!

Thank you particulary Hylander, for these two lines from Smyth:
1114. In the nominative ὅς, ἥ, are usually thus written. Some write ὅ, ἥ, οἵ, αἵ when these words are used as demonstratives; but ὃ μέν . . . ὃ δέ is rare.

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